Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?
Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:13 am
force myself to turn from wanting to beat the crap out of morons
This is not allowed? Who knew!
This is not allowed? Who knew!
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No. Not at all like that.jriccitelli wrote:Hi Mike, are you saying Paul was speaking of a progression toward perfection that we might somehow achieve in this life, or what? Are we wretched, and then progress out of that state into a perfected state?
Please don't think I'm angry at you. I'm only angry at the thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy.Paidion wrote:Dizerner,
What are you so angry about?
But this does not fit Paul's statement "I am flesh (his behavior is carnal), sold to sin (he is a slave to sin)".Paul just seemed to say that in this life they should recognize that their mind can desire to focus on doing good. But their bodies may not fully cooperate. These two conflicting elements would still coexist.
Right. It was in present tense. It was the gentiles in Rome who were hopelessly caught up in fleshly behavior. They were a slave to sin. Their bodies was not cooperating with their minds, their hopes. In these verses Paul was representing the despair they were facing at this moment in history. Tobin (Paul's Rhetoric,11) proposing something along this line:Homer wrote:Mikew wrote:
But this does not fit Paul's statement "I am flesh (his behavior is carnal), sold to sin (he is a slave to sin)".Paul just seemed to say that in this life they should recognize that their mind can desire to focus on doing good. But their bodies may not fully cooperate. These two conflicting elements would still coexist.
The present tense indicates the condition existing as Paul wrote the words. This isn't a description of a body not fully cooperating, but of failure.
This is not precisely what I have found but Tobin's view confirms many aspects of what I have presented.Tobin wrote:
In 7:7-25, the speaker's problem with the law is not its goodness or holiness. He admits that it is both good and holy. The problem is with his incapacity to observe it. As we shall see, the speech-in-character in 7:7-25 is actually an appeal to the experience of the difficulties Paul thought the largely Gentile Christian community in Rome must have found when trying to observe the ethical commandments of the law.
I would say 'obedience' is a general explanation of the state one is in after coming to Christ. (Paul is more specific to point to that 'form of teaching...' )Homer wrote:Mikew,
Consider what Paul has just said in chapter 6:
Romans 6:16-19 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Their obedience is a past act, apparently a reference to their baptism which Paul has just discussed. Regarding their slavery to sin, that was a continual past action.
But you must also take into consideration the mention of 'the weakness of your flesh.' Paul was speaking of the change they encountered (in coming to Christ) in v18. In v19, he is telling them that they should change their behavior (or mindset) so as to 'present [their] members as slaves to righteousness.'Homer wrote: 18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
Their having been freed and becoming slaves of righteousness are both passive, something they received.
Exactly. Paul was showing them the way out. This was the whole effort in Rom 6-8. He had to change their mindset from that of being defeated to that of being 'in Christ.'Homer wrote: Now consider:
John 8:34-36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
34. Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Converts to Christ are promised the Holy Spirit. They are enabled to overcome slavery to sin. God always provides a way out.
Yes. All that Paul said here fits with Rom 7 and 8.Homer wrote: Romans 6:22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Again their having been freed is passive on their part. If they are Christians they will still sin as we all do, but they are not "sold into bondage to sin".
That's my two cents.