Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:52 am

Dizerner,

Thanks for your reply, it helps me to work through this.

Consider:

Romans 7:7-14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.


The "for" in verse 14 refers to what Paul has just written. Sometimes in Romans Paul refers to natural law and other times the Law of Moses. Here with the reference to coveting from the 10 Commandments he is clearly referring to the LOM. He assures us that the LOM is good. It is he who is the problem. But at the time he wrote, surely 1 Corinthians 9:27 is true of his state; through the power of the Holy Spirit he has beat his body into submission and is no longer a slave.

Romans 8:2-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

9. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


I think Paul is speaking of a believer in God but under the LOM, not a Christian, when he describes himself as a slave to sin. He goes on to say through the Spirit he is free. Never, in any instance, do we have to sin; God always provides a way out. We can not have two masters. I think Paidion is right on this although I agree we still sin, we never reach perfection in this life.

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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:21 pm

I think Paul is speaking of a believer in God but under the LOM, not a Christian, when he describes himself as a slave to sin. He goes on to say through the Spirit he is free. Never, in any instance, do we have to sin; God always provides a way out. We can not have two masters. I think Paidion is right on this although I agree we still sin, we never reach perfection in this life.
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Homer Posts: 2070Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm








IMHO there is nothing to indicate Paul is not simply talking about himself. Sin is not his master it is simply an inclination that his flesh desires yet Paul's mind is fixed on the Spirit and Christ and this is what Paul desires to follow. If sin had dominion Paul would desire to follow his flesh.

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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:53 pm

Homer quoted:
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will be disqualified.
Homer, how does this prove the notion that Paul was writing in Romans 7 that he was unable to overcome wrongdoing and work righteousness?
It seems to me that the verse you quoted above states the exact opposite.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner

Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by dizerner » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:20 pm

Thanks for your reply, it helps me to work through this.
Homer I encourage you with everything I have to give this serious study and attention until Christ be formed in you.
Homer wrote:The "for" in verse 14 refers to what Paul has just written. Sometimes in Romans Paul refers to natural law and other times the Law of Moses. Here with the reference to coveting from the 10 Commandments he is clearly referring to the LOM. He assures us that the LOM is good. It is he who is the problem.
Okay, yea, I grant Paul can use Law in a few different ways, but wait! Law no matter what kind is a principle of Law, it's a demand for performance and a standard to live up to and a punishment for every infraction. Consider that Law's purpose is to condemn and to increase sin. We've got to follow the text closely, very, very closely—generalizing and assuming will not be a good thing if the teaching here is to free us from sin. We don't want to attempt that the wrong way. The Law is holy and just and good, but the Law does certain things to Paul and the solution for Paul is to be married to Christ instead of the Law.
But at the time he wrote, surely 1 Corinthians 9:27 is true of his state; through the power of the Holy Spirit he has beat his body into submission and is no longer a slave.
"The power of the Holy Spirit," there you go. "Yet it is not I, but the grace of God which was with me," says Paul. "I strive according to the might of his grace which works within me," says Paul. "It is no longer I who lives" says Paul, "but Christ who lives within me." Does any of that contradict "in my flesh dwells no good thing"? Paul buffets his body—but in his flesh dwells no good thing. Paul strives according to the power of God—but in his flesh dwells no good thing. Paul labors more than all the other apostles—but in his flesh dwells no good thing. Paul walks according the Spirit and produces the fruit of the Spirit—but in his flesh dwells no good thing. What? The key to Paul's power is just the opposite of what we might think—he didn't try try "extra hard" and he didn't grit his teeth to be "extra godly" he did one thing alone—acknowledge in his flesh dwells no good thing. What does that do? It makes you trust in something else besides yourself.
I think Paul is speaking of a believer in God but under the LOM, not a Christian, when he describes himself as a slave to sin. He goes on to say through the Spirit he is free. Never, in any instance, do we have to sin; God always provides a way out. We can not have two masters. I think Paidion is right on this although I agree we still sin, we never reach perfection in this life.
If the Law is a tutor—what does it tutor us? If the Law instructs us to lead us to a conclusion, what does it instruct us? One thing—that we can't. Does that leave us without a solution, does that leave us a wretched man? It's like so many Christians want to literally mix up Romans 8 and 7 into a "victory-failure" mash potato dish, and say we always limp on two feet in a life of frustration and partially godly and partially sinful living. Romans 7 and 8 promise us so much more than that! But we have to follow the instructions to the letter. Paul never promises partial freedom. Christ didn't pay a full and thorough price, for us to get a partial and half-hearted victory. But remember this—Christ didn't say we couldn't have two masters, he said we couldn't serve two masters. What does the flesh, serve, do you think? Will the flesh ever produce godliness, will it ever be a source of goodness or strength, will it ever obey Jesus, will it ever stop loving sin, will it ever be anything other than worthy of being crucified with Christ? Oh trust me—our greatest enemy is not Satan, it's the deception of thinking we are good people. What is the way out here, if in my flesh dwells no good thing? What's the way out?

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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:00 pm

Hi Paidion,
Homer quoted:

27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will be disqualified.

Homer, how does this prove the notion that Paul was writing in Romans 7 that he was unable to overcome wrongdoing and work righteousness?
It seems to me that the verse you quoted above states the exact opposite.
You are right. That was a messed up copy and paste. Here is the correct statement by Paul:

27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


Shows us we should read what we have pasted. :oops:

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Paidion
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:50 pm

Uhhh, yes. Actually, since I was so familiar with the verse, my mind supplied supplied the "not" and I didn't even notice the omission.

But my point remains. Paul speaks of bringing his body under subjection so that he will not be disqualified in the Christian "athlete's" race.
So he illustrates victory, rather than defeat.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:22 am

Hi Dizerner,

Homer I encourage you with everything I have to give this serious study and attention until Christ be formed in you.
That was Paul's message to those who sought salvation through law-keeping. Are you under the impression I am in that camp? How so? I deny we are under obligation to no law other that those enjoined by our King and His Apostles. That includes the 10 commandments, other than as reiterated in the new covenant. We will never earn salvation. We are saved by grace.
Okay, yea, I grant Paul can use Law in a few different ways, but wait! Law no matter what kind is a principle of Law, it's a demand for performance and a standard to live up to and a punishment for every infraction. Consider that Law's purpose is to condemn and to increase sin. We've got to follow the text closely, very, very closely—generalizing and assuming will not be a good thing if the teaching here is to free us from sin. We don't want to attempt that the wrong way. The Law is holy and just and good, but the Law does certain things to Paul and the solution for Paul is to be married to Christ instead of the Law.
Do Christ's commands become something different if they are referred to as laws?
"The power of the Holy Spirit," there you go. "Yet it is not I, but the grace of God which was with me," says Paul. "I strive according to the might of his grace which works within me," says Paul. "It is no longer I who lives" says Paul, "but Christ who lives within me." Does any of that contradict "in my flesh dwells no good thing"? Paul buffets his body—but in his flesh dwells no good thing. Paul strives according to the power of God—but in his flesh dwells no good thing. Paul labors more than all the other apostles—but in his flesh dwells no good thing. Paul walks according the Spirit and produces the fruit of the Spirit—but in his flesh dwells no good thing. What? The key to Paul's power is just the opposite of what we might think—he didn't try try "extra hard" and he didn't grit his teeth to be "extra godly" he did one thing alone—acknowledge in his flesh dwells no good thing. What does that do? It makes you trust in something else besides yourself.
Well, I certainly do not place my trust in myself. You seem to think I am on the Pharisees side rather the tax gatherer; his prayer is mine.
If the Law is a tutor—what does it tutor us? If the Law instructs us to lead us to a conclusion, what does it instruct us? One thing—that we can't.


Are you saying no one under the law, or before, was saved? Wasn't Abraham justified by faith? What about Zacharias and Elizabeth, Luke 1? Or is your point something I can agree with; we can have peace with God in Christ, unlike what they had.
Does that leave us without a solution, does that leave us a wretched man? It's like so many Christians want to literally mix up Romans 8 and 7 into a "victory-failure" mash potato dish, and say we always limp on two feet in a life of frustration and partially godly and partially sinful living. Romans 7 and 8 promise us so much more than that! But we have to follow the instructions to the letter.


Are these instructions laws or commandments or a plan or what? I'm not following you.
Paul never promises partial freedom. Christ didn't pay a full and thorough price, for us to get a partial and half-hearted victory.


Agreed, but the fight will not end until death or Christ returns.
But remember this—Christ didn't say we couldn't have two masters, he said we couldn't serve two masters.


I wouldn't define someone or thing as a master if we did not serve it. Seems you are making a distinction where there is no difference.
What does the flesh, serve, do you think? Will the flesh ever produce godliness, will it ever be a source of goodness or strength, will it ever obey Jesus, will it ever stop loving sin, will it ever be anything other than worthy of being crucified with Christ? Oh trust me—our greatest enemy is not Satan, it's the deception of thinking we are good people. What is the way out here, if in my flesh dwells no good thing? What's the way out?
The way out is found in Romans 8:1-11. You seem to have erected a straw man and thoroughly beaten him. ;)

dizerner

Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by dizerner » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:16 am

Homer you write like you didn't understand a word I said, but that's okay. Let me try to untangle some of your false assertions.
Well, I certainly do not place my trust in myself. You seem to think I am on the Pharisees side rather the tax gatherer; his prayer is mine.
First, you seem under the impression I'm trying to "correct" you. You asked for interpretations of Romans 7, I gave mine. So it doesn't really make sense for you to get all over sensitive by being overly defensive does it?
Are you under the impression I am in that camp? How so? I
I'm not under any impression at all. There is no need for you to imagine motives that I don't clearly state. If I thought you were in that camp, I'd say "Homer, I think you're in this camp."
I deny we are under obligation to no law other that those enjoined by our King and His Apostles.
You say we are under no law except these laws. Why not be straight-forward, since you believe we are under "some" laws, then do not say "we are under... no laws... other than."
That was Paul's message to those who sought salvation through law-keeping.
And to every single believer of all time, right? I hope you'd agree that was a generic Gospel truth call, and not for some particular people only? So why say this, it's irrelevant?
Do Christ's commands become something different if they are referred to as laws?
I'd say so. If Christ's commands are by grace, then they become promises of what he will do in us, not demands for us to do them.
Are you saying no one under the law, or before, was saved? Wasn't Abraham justified by faith? What about Zacharias and Elizabeth, Luke 1? Or is your point something I can agree with; we can have peace with God in Christ, unlike what they had.
Justification by Law or by Grace is a true dichotomy. You don't mix it, nor did the OT saints become justified by Law. They had peace with God just like we do—faith in grace, as they perceived it expressed in the Law.
Are these instructions laws or commandments or a plan or what? I'm not following you.
The instructions are what the Word of God teaches us... the Word of God's teachings.
Agreed, but the fight will not end until death or Christ returns.
Many Christians are fighting trying to get into victory, instead of fighting from a victory that has already been won.
I wouldn't define someone or thing as a master if we did not serve it. Seems you are making a distinction where there is no difference.
What if one minute you serve one and the next minute you serve the other? This is, actually, the experience of many Christians; yet Christ said they cannot server two masters. But in experience it often seems like they do. What I was bringing out is, my flesh can have a master—and that master is only in effect if I am living from my old flesh.
The way out is found in Romans 8:1-11. You seem to have erected a straw man and thoroughly beaten him. ;)
Yea, of course you'd probably never realize, that if I did not in actuality misrepresent any position you hold then by calling my post a "straw man" you've actually erected your own straw man and knocked it down by merely calling me a straw man. Illustrate to me where I misrepresent any position you hold, or withdraw your baseless and wrong claim of "straw man" please, which ironically and hypocritically then becomes you straw manning me.

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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:55 pm

Dizerner,

Let's start here:



You:
Homer I encourage you with everything I have to give this serious study and attention until Christ be formed in you.
Me:
That was Paul's message to those who sought salvation through law-keeping. Are you under the impression I am in that camp? How so? I deny we are under obligation to no law other that those enjoined by our King and His Apostles. That includes the 10 commandments, other than as reiterated in the new covenant. We will never earn salvation. We are saved by grace.
Do you not see that your statement clearly implies that I am trying to be saved by keeping the law? And that Chist is not formed in me? What have I written that causes you to think this?

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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Paidion » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:08 pm

Dizerner, you wrote:If Christ's commands are by grace, then they become promises of what he will do in us, not demands for us to do them.
Dizerner, after Jesus gave his disciples his commandments in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, he said the following words:
Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it. (Matt 7:24-27 ESV)
Which of the two do you think Jesus indicated with these words? Did He say that the commands He had just given were promises of what He would do in his disciples?
Or did He simply indicate the consequences of doing the things He instructed as well as the consequences of not doing them?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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