Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

steve7150
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by steve7150 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:13 am

force myself to turn from wanting to beat the crap out of morons






This is not allowed? Who knew! :o

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Paidion
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:33 pm

Dizerner,

What are you so angry about?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

mikew
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by mikew » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:05 pm

Regarding the original post...

Paul was talking about the Roman gentiles' history until the time of the letter.

When the earliest members of the gentile followers of Christ joined the church it was through the synagogue. Eventually they came to reject their encounter with the law-focused culture in the synagogues and rebelled against that.

By the time Paul wrote, the gentiles had rejected the Jews and the Jewish laws. But these gentiles also were at a loss how to get out of their dead-end path they chose.

Paul's approach was to write in a sympathetic tone about their situation and thus he spoke as if this were his encounter with the law.

There's a lot more detail required to show exactly what happened over time and then how Paul sought to give them the proper direction to head.

Now specially about the 'wretched man,' Paul was showing that the Roman gentile believers would still have a struggle in the flesh but they still could serve God.

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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:14 pm

Hi Mike, are you saying Paul was speaking of a progression toward perfection that we might somehow achieve in this life, or what? Are we wretched, and then progress out of that state into a perfected state?

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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by mikew » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:51 pm

jriccitelli wrote:Hi Mike, are you saying Paul was speaking of a progression toward perfection that we might somehow achieve in this life, or what? Are we wretched, and then progress out of that state into a perfected state?
No. Not at all like that.

Paul just seemed to say that in this life they should recognize that their mind can desire to focus on doing good. But their bodies may not fully cooperate. These two conflicting elements would still coexist.

I would have to think on this more but Paul was saying something similar to the words of comfort we might give a person today who is struggling with the flesh: "You are certainly a Christian. A non-Christian wouldn't care if he might be offending God."

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dizerner
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by dizerner » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:22 pm

Paidion wrote:Dizerner,

What are you so angry about?
Please don't think I'm angry at you. I'm only angry at the thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:06 am

Mikew wrote:
Paul just seemed to say that in this life they should recognize that their mind can desire to focus on doing good. But their bodies may not fully cooperate. These two conflicting elements would still coexist.
But this does not fit Paul's statement "I am flesh (his behavior is carnal), sold to sin (he is a slave to sin)".
The present tense indicates the condition existing as Paul wrote the words. This isn't a description of a body not fully cooperating, but of failure.

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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by mikew » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:43 am

Homer wrote:Mikew wrote:
Paul just seemed to say that in this life they should recognize that their mind can desire to focus on doing good. But their bodies may not fully cooperate. These two conflicting elements would still coexist.
But this does not fit Paul's statement "I am flesh (his behavior is carnal), sold to sin (he is a slave to sin)".
The present tense indicates the condition existing as Paul wrote the words. This isn't a description of a body not fully cooperating, but of failure.
Right. It was in present tense. It was the gentiles in Rome who were hopelessly caught up in fleshly behavior. They were a slave to sin. Their bodies was not cooperating with their minds, their hopes. In these verses Paul was representing the despair they were facing at this moment in history. Tobin (Paul's Rhetoric,11) proposing something along this line:
Tobin wrote:
In 7:7-25, the speaker's problem with the law is not its goodness or holiness. He admits that it is both good and holy. The problem is with his incapacity to observe it. As we shall see, the speech-in-character in 7:7-25 is actually an appeal to the experience of the difficulties Paul thought the largely Gentile Christian community in Rome must have found when trying to observe the ethical commandments of the law.
This is not precisely what I have found but Tobin's view confirms many aspects of what I have presented.

I almost hated to present these ideas outside of the broader reading of Romans but it is hard to resist the opportunity to look at an interesting approach taken by Paul.

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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:35 pm

Mikew,

Consider what Paul has just said in chapter 6:

Romans 6:16-19 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

Their obedience is a past act, apparently a reference to their baptism which Paul has just discussed. Regarding their slavery to sin, that was a continual past action.

18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.


Their having been freed and becoming slaves of righteousness are both passive, something they received.

Now consider:

John 8:34-36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

34. Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Converts to Christ are promised the Holy Spirit. They are enabled to overcome slavery to sin. God always provides a way out.

Romans 6:22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Again their having been freed is passive on their part. If they are Christians they will still sin as we all do, but they are not "sold into bondage to sin".

That's my two cents.

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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by mikew » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:02 pm

Homer wrote:Mikew,

Consider what Paul has just said in chapter 6:

Romans 6:16-19 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

Their obedience is a past act, apparently a reference to their baptism which Paul has just discussed. Regarding their slavery to sin, that was a continual past action.
I would say 'obedience' is a general explanation of the state one is in after coming to Christ. (Paul is more specific to point to that 'form of teaching...' )
Note that Paul spoke in v17 using the past tense. Yet he is reaffirming the motion of change they took on at that time.
As such there is no problem for my reading. Paul merely wished to give them some footing and some assurances.
Homer wrote: 18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.


Their having been freed and becoming slaves of righteousness are both passive, something they received.
But you must also take into consideration the mention of 'the weakness of your flesh.' Paul was speaking of the change they encountered (in coming to Christ) in v18. In v19, he is telling them that they should change their behavior (or mindset) so as to 'present [their] members as slaves to righteousness.'
Homer wrote: Now consider:

John 8:34-36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

34. Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Converts to Christ are promised the Holy Spirit. They are enabled to overcome slavery to sin. God always provides a way out.
Exactly. Paul was showing them the way out. This was the whole effort in Rom 6-8. He had to change their mindset from that of being defeated to that of being 'in Christ.'
Homer wrote: Romans 6:22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Again their having been freed is passive on their part. If they are Christians they will still sin as we all do, but they are not "sold into bondage to sin".

That's my two cents.
Yes. All that Paul said here fits with Rom 7 and 8.

I mainly just wanted to introduce the reading that has been widely overlooked. I mostly have withdrawn from short form posts to focus, instead, on longer writings. The full implications of each section of Romans cannot be conveniently included within a forum discussion.

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