Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

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dizerner
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by dizerner » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:30 pm

Paidion wrote:
Dizerner, you wrote:If Christ's commands are by grace, then they become promises of what he will do in us, not demands for us to do them.
Dizerner, after Jesus gave his disciples his commandments in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, he said the following words:
Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it. (Matt 7:24-27 ESV)
Which of the two do you think Jesus indicated with these words? Did He say that the commands He had just given were promises of what He would do in his disciples?
Or did He simply indicate the consequences of doing the things He instructed as well as the consequences of not doing them?
I think I made my position clear. I think no human being on earth has kept the commandments of Jesus except by a gift of grace where Jesus creates the right desires in us that we can not have except as a promise from God that Christ would live again inside us, for he would see his seed because his soul was a sin offering.

Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

What you will have to do, to think you can actually obey Jesus as a form of necessary justification or righteousness, is lower the perfect standard of the law to the point of wherever you think you or others can keep it, then say God overlooks the fact that you actually disobey a good portion of the time. I don't see that taught anywhere. This is called cheap law—the idea that obedience is necessary and the source of justification, yet within a constant compromise of the Law's demands for perfection.

Until one see's oneself as a hopeless sinner, one is incapable of trusting Christ alone, any more than a camel can go through the eye of the needle.
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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:11 pm

Dizerner,

Paidion's position and mine are not much different, both synergistic. I do not disagree at all that we can do nothing apart from Christ. Neither will he do anything in us if we make no effort. Are you a monergist? I sometimes have a problem following your reasoning. Perhaps I'm a little old and slow, but I'm not getting it. :oops:

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dizerner
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by dizerner » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:34 pm

Homer wrote:Neither will he do anything in us if we make no effort
Do you think your efforts can earn you heaven?
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:01 pm

Do you think your efforts can earn you heaven?
Not in the least. We have sinned; we deserve death. What do you say?

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dizerner
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by dizerner » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:22 pm

Homer wrote:
Do you think your efforts can earn you heaven?
Not in the least. We have sinned; we deserve death. What do you say?
Completely agree, just want to make sure we started on the same base. I see it really just as a fruit/root problem for someone that understands we fundamentally deserve hell and can't earn our way to heaven. We read the commands and calls to holiness, and know that God obviously calls us to attain them, but how can we?

I think we need a miracle to obey God. I'm a synergist, but not in the way you'd classically think of. I don't think we provide anything inherently good nor do we produce obedience—we provide faith/trust in Christ and the humble admission that we cannot except by a miracle of his grace.

Maybe it's the miracle part that confuses you so often. Because what I'm saying is, to get that miracle to happen—we have to know the depth of our own depravity. That's what forms "Christ" in us, simply knowing our need of him. Do you know your need of Christ? Well, then grace is working in you, and you surely can't take credit for that!

So assuming all these things I ask myself, what would increase the grace level in my life? That's what I think Romans is about here.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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dizerner
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by dizerner » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:30 am

Homer wrote:Dizerner,

Let's start here:



You:
Homer I encourage you with everything I have to give this serious study and attention until Christ be formed in you.
Me:
That was Paul's message to those who sought salvation through law-keeping. Are you under the impression I am in that camp? How so? I deny we are under obligation to no law other that those enjoined by our King and His Apostles. That includes the 10 commandments, other than as reiterated in the new covenant. We will never earn salvation. We are saved by grace.
Do you not see that your statement clearly implies that I am trying to be saved by keeping the law? And that Chist is not formed in me? What have I written that causes you to think this?
Homer I can see now how it sounds that way. I assure you I didn't mean it that way. I think we can be saved, mature Christians yet go on to further depths of sanctification. I've been saved almost 40 years and I don't think Christ is fully formed in me yet, in regards to really living the way Christ lived and I should lived. I hope that sounds more reasonable and less insulting to you.
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Homer
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Homer » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:21 am

Dizerner,

Thanks, I agree fully with this:
I think we can be saved, mature Christians yet go on to further depths of sanctification. I've been saved almost 40 years and I don't think Christ is fully formed in me yet, in regards to really living the way Christ lived and I should lived.
I too could have been clearer in what I wrote.

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Paidion
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:02 pm

Dizerner,

From what have you been saved?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

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dizerner
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by dizerner » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:05 pm

Paidion wrote:Dizerner,

From what have you been saved?
We've been over this.

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Rom 5:9 NKJ)
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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jriccitelli
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Re: Who Was the Wretched Man, Romans 7?

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:06 pm

Hello there guys. Glad you finally agreed :) . I always felt an affinity for Paul because he spoke how I felt. 'I' am a wretched man too, but I know God will save me, is saving me, and will one day 'completely' save and 'remove me from this body' of sin. I am happily married, but I still have to force myself not to look at pretty girls, force myself to turn from wanting to beat the crap out of morons, hold my mouth, not steal or cheat, get to bed early, eat more veggies... I struggle daily, much less than i used to, but this is human nature. Someone said once that the closer you come to God, or into His light the more you see sins you never saw within your own heart. That is the hard part of drawing close to God. One day though He will free my from this body of sin, thank God! :D

Jesus fully lives in me, but I feel He is forming me, not me Him.

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