The Narrow Path Ministries

Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 6:17-20

Is this hope heaven, Jesus, God promised preservation?
Going through a rough spot and wishing to clarify this anchor.

Thanks

11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end,
12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself,
14 saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.”
15 And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise.

As Abraham had faith and patience that he would inherit the promise to enter the land God had given him, so you, through faith and patience can inherit the promise that God has for you.

16 For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation.
17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.
19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain,
20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

I suggest that this hope and this promise is the hope and promise of righteousness—of perfection.
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness (Galatians 5:5)
In the first 10 verses of the next chapter, the writer contrasts the Levitical priesthood with that of Melchizedek. Then he writes:

11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

So verse 11 seems to confirm my view that this hope and promise is the hope of perfection (completion).

21centpilgrim wrote:Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 6:17-20

Is this hope heaven, Jesus, God promised preservation?
Going through a rough spot and wishing to clarify this anchor.

Thanks

(robin)
Good topic, good question ... and Paidion, of course, gives us some good answers.
Your summary, by the way, about our security in Christ is right on ... the question, however, is a bit troubling.

Is this hope a) heaven, b) Jesus, c) preservation ... perhaps changing the perspective would help; that is,
what if you were to put self aside, and think about it in a Christ-centered way. God, of course, will keep His promises,
we are saved in Christ, done deal, the how and when this is "perfected" shouldn't really be our concern; that is, God
said it was so, so let God deal with the details. But then, what is this hope ... again, perhaps changing our perspective
would go a long way in resolving the question. That is, what if we didn't think about this "hope" (I prefer the word "expectation")
as it relates to ourselves, but in how it relates to God and Chris?.

I'm a citizen of heaven, I'm saved in Christ, I died on the stake with Christ, and have been raised with Him,
I have, within me, now, God's very righteousness, in God's sight I'm everything He sees in Christ, I'm sanctified
... I'm still me, of course, bad to the bone, couldn't NOT sin if my life depended upon it! (Ha!, it does, it did, I'm dead for sure)
But then, I've already died, in Christ, and I already live in Christ ... in God's own good time, this will all be verifiable,
so in the meantime, I'll just take Him at His word, and fear not, because God doesn't go back on His word ...

So what, then is my expectation, my hope ... other than all those previously mentioned things that pertain to me ...
My expectation is that, despite the currently obvious, I will (and am) someday be some part of God's glory;
doesn't seem right, does it, doesn't seem possible ... how could I, in any way, be some aspect of God's very own glory?

I really dont know, but that is my expectation, expectation is more than mere hope, it's my assurance that it is and will be verifiable someday ...
Me, God will point to me, and all of heaven and earth will applaude Him, applaude God for His great glory ... me my of function is just to reflect His light, His glory,
it's all His, of course, He will just use me as an example, a reflection of His doing, His being ...

Now isn't that sufficient expectation ... the rest of it is all just personal bells and whistles, the real expectation is that I will somehow reflect God's glory ...

Robin wrote:I'm a citizen of heaven, I'm saved in Christ, I died on the stake with Christ, and have been raised with Him,
I have, within me, now, God's very righteousness, in God's sight I'm everything He sees in Christ, I'm sanctified
... I'm still me, of course, bad to the bone, couldn't NOT sin if my life depended upon it! (Ha!, it does, it did, I'm dead for sure)
But then, I've already died, in Christ, and I already live in Christ ... in God's own good time, this will all be verifiable,
so in the meantime, I'll just take Him at His word, and fear not, because God doesn't go back on His word ...

Are you saying, Robin, that you can go right on sinning with impunity? Because you are covered by the blood of Christ so that when God looks at you He no longer sees your sin but Christ's righteousness? This is a very common fundamentalist view, and in my opinion, the most dangerous false belief within Christendom. Here is what the apostle Paul had to say about it:

Paul wrote:For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil..., but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good..., for God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-10)

21centpilgrim wrote:Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 6:17-20

Is this hope heaven, Jesus, God promised preservation?
Going through a rough spot and wishing to clarify this anchor.

Thanks

A Sunday school chorus we sang many years ago went like this: "Faith is just believing what God says he will do." I found that his had a strong connection to Romans 4:20 'Yet he [Abraham] did not waiver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.'

The idea here is that faith looks to the power of God to do what he has promised, giving me a definition of faith that says 'faith is the unshakeable conviction that God is able to do what he has promised'.

By contrast hope looks to the certainty that God will do what he has promised leading to the definition that hope is the unshakeable conviction that God is certain to do what he has promised'.

And love - love is the unshakeable conviction that God wants for us only what is truly best for us and for his glory.

Graeme

(robin)
I'm a citizen of heaven, I'm saved in Christ, I died on the stake with Christ, and have been raised with Him,
I have, within me, now, God's very righteousness, in God's sight I'm everything He sees in Christ, I'm sanctified
... I'm still me, of course, bad to the bone, couldn't NOT sin if my life depended upon it! (Ha!, it does, it did, I'm dead for sure)
But then, I've already died, in Christ, and I already live in Christ ... in God's own good time, this will all be verifiable,
so in the meantime, I'll just take Him at His word, and fear not, because God doesn't go back on His word ...

(Paidion)
Are you saying, Robin, that you can go right on sinning with impunity?

(robin)
Is that, really, all you heard" ...Really!
So let's try this again:

I'm a citizen of heaven
I'm saved in Christ
I died on the stake with Christ, and
I have been raised with Him,
I have, within me, now, God's very righteousness
In God's sight I'm everything He sees in Christ
I'm sanctified

Is there anything, here, Paidion, that you dont believe; that you take objection to?

(Paidion)
Are you saying, Robin, that you can go right on sinning with impunity?

(robin)
Please dont make assumptions, accusations, judgements about someone you've never met,
never bothered to have a conversation with ... You do "know" that I acknowledge our Savior,
so you should "know" that I'm a fellow believer, in the Body of Christ, and yet you ...

(Paidion)
Are you saying, Robin, that you can go right on sinning with impunity,
because you are covered by the blood of Christ ...

(robin)
So, Paidion, when did you stop beating your wife, and kicking the cat ...

(Paidion)
...you are covered by the blood of Christ o that when God looks at you He no longer sees your sin but Christ's righteousness?

(robin)
Exactly! You, at least got that part of it right ...

(Paidion)
This is a very common fundamentalist view ...

(robin)
God Forbid!!!
... a fundamental, bedrock, foundation of trust in God, and what He accomplishes through Christ our Savior ....
God Forbid!!

(Paidion)
This is a very common fundamentalist view ...

(robin)
I beg to differ ... it's a very uncommon viewpoint, even those who hold with justification by faith (e.g., a Luthern viewpoint),
are still insisting upon being responsible for their own salvation; sort of a contractural point of view; that is ... IF I'm faithful, THEN I'm saved.
This isn't Christ-centered, it's self-centered ...I'm not an "ist" of any ilk, I'm simply Christ-centered ... how about yourself?

(Paidion)
...a very common fundamentalist view
and in my opinion, the most dangerous false belief within Christendom.

(robin)
The most dangerous ... false ... belief is one that doesn't acknowledge that God does it all;
anytime, we begin to think that we have anything to say or do about our being saved,
we are no longer Christ-centered, and are drifting towards becoming enemies of the cross ...

(Paidion)
...a very common fundamentalist view
and in my opinion, the most dangerous false belief within Christendom.

(robin)
You're so quick to judge ...(with impunity, perhaps?) ... hopefully, you dont go right on doing this.

As for what Paul says in the early portions of Romans, you know as well as I do, that there's some sort of disconnect, therein,
with what Paul clearly says, elsewhere ...I've a theory about this, but that would make for a compleatly differnt topic thread,
so bear with me a moment, more, and allow me to expound a little about this Christ-centered trust ...

Paul seems to view the present activity of the spirit in ... fundamentally ... creative terms. Whereas the template for the original
humanity was a creature modelled from the earth, the template of the new humanity is the second Adam, Christ, a figure Who has
undergone a startling termination and reconsititution. Hence the spirit maps and moulds people onto Christ's prototypical trajectory,
salvation is realized as the old state of bondage to Sin and Death in the Flesh is terminated, and a new resurrected eschatological
state is effected (1Cor 15:22, 42-49). To reiterate this vital ... viewpoint: As the spirit configures people to the template of Christ -
specifically to His descent into death and ascent into glory - they TOO are thereby delivered from their present oppressed and corrupted
codition by means of its termination in Christ's execution and their recreation in a new liberated and transformed condition that is
grafted onto His resurrected existence; and no longer inhabited by the powers of Sin and Death.

(Paidion)
...a common fundamentalist view, and in my opinion, the most dangerous false belief within Christendom.

(robin)
Actually, not all that common ...currently...I've only found it taked to (in detail), by Douglas A Campbell; his
"The Deliverance of God: An Apocalyptic Rereading of Justification in Paul" is well worth the effort (900 pages) of reading;
and, he has a shorter summary on this uncommon concept of being Christ-centered, called, "The Quest For Paul's Gospel" ...

(Paidion)
...in my opinion, the most dangerous false belief within Christendom.

(robin)
Now Paul is well aware that this process has only been completed for the one person, Jesus Christ (and even then, His universal rule
is yet to be consummated, but he insists tha it has, nevertheless, begun in all Believers (the Body of Christ), and that they must
... consequently... live on the basis of what they are becoming, rather than what they were. That is, it's important to recognize this
fusion with Jesus' descent through suffering and death, because it is precisely this that guarantees our future transformation. To be
experiencing the beginning and middle of Jesus's story guarantees that its glorious end will, also, be experienced concretely. Hence,
the important roles in Paul's thought for the motifs of weakness and faithfulness, that is, of "astheneia" and "pistis." They function as
sighns of assurance that one is on track for glory, sharing Christ's downward trajectory, in addition to functioning as signs fo authentic
Christian ministry. Ergo, speaking specifically with respect to "pistis," it does NOT function as a means of appropriation. This is to place
"pistis" in the wrong story, as well as at the wrong point, viz, it is placed at the beginning of the Christian's saved story, as a condition,
and not within Christ's story, which we go on to share in a participatory fashion, in organic relation particularly to the surrounding
material concerning His suffering and death.

(Paidion)
Are you saying, Robin, that you can go right on sinning with impunity?

(robin)
... later alligator ...

Robin wrote:So let's try this again:

I'm a citizen of heaven
I'm saved in Christ
I died on the stake with Christ, and
I have been raised with Him,
I have, within me, now, God's very righteousness
In God's sight I'm everything He sees in Christ
I'm sanctified

Is there anything, here, Paidion, that you dont believe; that you take objection to?

Yes, I don't believe that if I do something wrong, God doesn't see it. I also don't believe I'm "righteous in God's sight" when I am not righteous. Yes, Christ died for me, but that doesn't mean the God is deceived—that Christ has clothed me with a dazzling cloak of "righteousness" that blinds God so that He doesn't see my wrongdoing but only Christ's righteousness. I don't believe that "you are everything He sees in Christ." Let's get real! He sees you and me as we actually are. He wants actual righteousness in us, not a blindfold that keeps Him from seeing any wrongdoing that we do.

Christ didn't die to cover up our sin; He died to deliver us from sin, and to enable us by God's grace to overcome wrongdoing and to live righteous lives—actual righteous lives, not a pretense, a coverup with which Christ clothes us.

Here is the reason Christ died according to Peter, Paul, and the author of Hebrews:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Not one passage in the New Testament states that Christ died to cover up our sin so that God couldn't see it.

I also don't believe that you "died on the stake with Christ." You weren't around when He died on the stake, and there's nothing in the Scriptures that affirms such a strange idea. There is one sentence in the entire New Testament that you could interpret in that way. 2 Timothy 2:11 literally says, "If we have co-died, we also shall co-live." The phrase "with Him" is not in the Greek. To co-die probably means that I died to sin when I became a disciple of Christ (as several commentators affirm), just as He died to sin in some sense when He died. I don't fully understand how, in his death, He died to sin. It's the dative case in Greek, and that could also mean that He died for sin. To co-live with Him means that I will live a righteous life as He did throughout his life and still does in his resurrection.

Romans 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin once, but the life he lives he lives to God.

"died on the stake"

Hmmmm, this seems familiar given my JW upbringing.....were you a JW too?

Regards, Brenden.

TheEditor wrote:"died on the stake"

Hmmmm, this seems familiar given my JW upbringing.....were you a JW too?

Regards, Brenden.

My guess from our other thread, is that is he just very familiar with the Greek.