Romans 8:28-30

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darinhouston
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Romans 8:28-30

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 26, 2015 11:17 pm

I've been reading Romans over and over this month and it is starting to have life for me for the first time. I don't think any of the commentators do anything but confuse it, but I'm wondering about one thing.

Has anyone read this passage taking its past tense literally? Reading v28 together with v29-30, it seems we know things work for good BECAUSE of this so-called golden chain. That makes it sound like we should be able to consider some particular people or group of people for whom this chain was historically shown to be true prior to Christ's ascension or else the passage as a whole doesn't really make sense in the context of the whole chapter.

Anyone?


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darinhouston
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Romans 8:28-9

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 26, 2015 11:19 pm

By the way I think paidion's post translating v28 below fits better in the covenantal apologetic context of the book.


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steve
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Re: Romans 8:28-9

Post by steve » Wed May 27, 2015 8:03 am

Darin,

I am interested in hearing you flesh-out your question more thoroughly. I am not picking up your point. Do you mean to include verse 30, when you speak of the "past tense" (you only mentioned 28 and 29)? Also, from where are you deriving your "prior to Christ's ascension" frame of reference in the passage?

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darinhouston
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Romans 8:28-30

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 27, 2015 12:20 pm

I revised the title and verse reference. Yes, it was the whole section to which I was referring. There clearly is a shift in tense here. If Paul is giving general teachings about what's normative for us, the past tense doesn't make much sense. Is this referring perhaps to a some old testament saints or Israel as a nation culminating in Christ, or something else? The section and possibly the whole book is about his faithfulness to us going forward as exemplified by what he already did, so referring back to someone or some group who was already glorified (we have not yet been glorified) makes sense, but I'm not sure how to apply that.


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darinhouston
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Re: Romans 8:28-30

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 27, 2015 1:35 pm

Here's how I'm seeing the issue....

8:17ff is an extended section looking forward to our glorification and what must occur for us to attain to this glorification. It speaks of us as having the firstfruits of the Spirit, and yet still groaning for our adoption and our glorification, which it states pretty clearly won’t happen until our bodies are redeemed. Then it turns to our hope, which is yet unseen.

8:28ff then turns quite obviously to a proof that can bolster our hope in all that followed from 8:77ff, the proof seemingly being intended as a historical proof (showing that although our hope is in something unseen, we can count on God's faithfulness in what he's already done historically). Consistent with the rest of the letter, explaining the new and old covenant in a way that confirms God’s consistent faithfulness both to Israel (properly understood) and the purpose of the law (as properly understood) and to God’s election and calling of His people (as properly understood), and the purpose and role of faith (as properly understood) he confirms that we can now count on his faithfulness going forward based on his demonstrated faithfulness in the past (as properly understood). Consistent with that overarching theme throughout, he’s applying it here to the future and explicitly states that the “golden chain” is the PROOF of that hope/knowledge in God’s faithfulness going forward for those who can really be called his people who are living in the Spirit and in Faith consistent with his treatment of those notions in the rest of the letter.

So, if I'm on firm ground so far -- the question is: if it’s a historic proof, then to whom does it refer? Is it a summary treatment of the Remnant/proper Israel prior to or ultimately fulfilled in Christ? It doesn’t seem natural to merely confirm the traditional view by saying that it’s being stated from God’s perspective in an “already/not yet” context. That would seem backwards, and would seem to be a further explanation of what we can expect but which would still not be a proof (following "because") but instead still require its own proof – in other words, he would need to say we know that all things work…predestined…justified…glorified because XYZ. That’s not what he says. He says the reverse. He says we KNOW the end because he has been faithful in the past to predestinate/call/justify/glorify some person/group.

I think this all could refer to the Remnant of Israel and the line through to Christ except for the glorification (unless that glorification refers to Christ in his ultimate identify with Israel, stating that the Remnant was predestined and called for the purpose of bringing Jesus, that He did come and they were glorified in His resurrection as the "head"/representative of true Israel).

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darinhouston
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Re: Romans 8:28-9

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 27, 2015 1:52 pm

steve wrote:Darin,

I am interested in hearing you flesh-out your question more thoroughly. I am not picking up your point. Do you mean to include verse 30, when you speak of the "past tense" (you only mentioned 28 and 29)? Also, from where are you deriving your "prior to Christ's ascension" frame of reference in the passage?
As to the ascension, I guess I was correlating that with Christ's glorification. I probably should have said his resurrection.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Romans 8:28-30

Post by robbyyoung » Wed May 27, 2015 3:22 pm

Hi Darin,

If you look this word up, "δοξάζω" (doxazō). It has more than one particular meaning. The one in which you are referring to, 'glorified spiritual bodies', I believe, seems to not be in view, rather, 'to honour or hold in honour' is a better translation.


1. to think, suppose, be of opinion
2. to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3. to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4. to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour

One of many examples would be John 21:19.

God Bless.

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darinhouston
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Re: Romans 8:28-30

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 27, 2015 3:50 pm

robbyyoung wrote:Hi Darin,

If you look this word up, "δοξάζω" (doxazō). It has more than one particular meaning. The one in which you are referring to, 'glorified spiritual bodies', I believe, seems to not be in view, rather, 'to honour or hold in honour' is a better translation.


1. to think, suppose, be of opinion
2. to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3. to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4. to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour

One of many examples would be John 21:19.

God Bless.

That would seem rather odd in light of the whole passage -- what makes you say that's not in view here?

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darinhouston
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Re: Romans 8:28-30

Post by darinhouston » Thu May 28, 2015 10:43 pm

Lookie what I found. This makes a lot of sense.

http://youtu.be/qKwIijhZW-M



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dwilkins
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Re: Romans 8:28-30

Post by dwilkins » Thu May 28, 2015 11:39 pm

I think Wright is over complicating it. The few verses are in the OP are:

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

While I understand that you are interested in this section, I don't think you can make sense of it without backing up and taking in the whole argument starting in verse 18:

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
Rom 8:27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I back up to there because his argument starts with trying to explain how the believers he was addressing were supposed to deal with their current persecutions. The answer is that they pale in comparison to the anticipated glory that will be revealed. But, the suffering has resulted in martyrdom. It is helpful to understand that in Colossians and Hebrews Paul uses the term translated "creation" or "creature" for human beings. He might also be doing so in Romans 1. I suggest that he is doing so in Romans 8. So, Paul had preached the gospel to all creation (people, not gnats), when people believe they become a new creation (new type of person, not frog), and creation (people, not rocks) will be set free from bondage when the sons of God are revealed.

Moving down farther in Romans 8 we see a promise for those who are undergoing martyrdom, the topic of the discourse per v.18. In v.29 he moves into those who are predestined. Using just the text, not your theological assumptions, can you name a group of people from scripture who are predestined? You can find a group of martyrs who were predestined in Revelation 6 (the only explicit group I've been able to find, BTW):

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

So, these characters were martyred and then glorified. Others will be predestined to do so before the parousia. The parousia can't happen until the exact group predestined to be martyred are in fact killed. But, Romans does us the favor of describing the process that this group goes through (described in Revelation as finishing with being glorified). In Romans, they are:

1) Predestined to be conformed to the image of the son (I'd argue martyred and then glorified).
2) Those he predestined he called
3) Those he called he justified
4) Those he justified he glorified

Past tense.

Wright would normally go into some detail about how justification is only finished after death and judgment in heaven. I'm not surprised that he skipped that here. I'm also not surprised that he skipped the fact that those who went through this process in Romans 8 did it in the past tense, so that it's a real stretch to make this predestination dynamic into the foundation for all soteriology. Verses 28-30 are meant to be a record of what other predestined people can look forward to. It becomes a promise for the others who are predestined to be martyred before the parousia, but it isn't meant as an explicit or simple promise for people outside of that group. Audience relevance.

Doug

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