In Greek, words and phrases are not necessarily in sequential order.
Here is a word-for-word translation of I Corinthians 10:17:
Because one bread one body the many we are for all out of the one bread we partake. .
Which of the following translations do you think expresses best what Paul meant?
1. Because (there is) one bread, we (who are) many are one body. For we all partake of the one bread.
2. Because we (who are) many are one body, (there is) one bread. For we all partake of the one bread.
3. For we (who are) many are one bread (and) one body. For we all partake of the one loaf.
If you think none of these three correctly expresses Paul's meaning, and if a bolt of enlightenment should strike you as to Paul's real meaning, please share it with us.
How should this verse be translated?
How should this verse be translated?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: How should this verse be translated?
I'll go with choice #1
Re: How should this verse be translated?
In my view, the "one bread" is Christ. If this is correct, then only #1 Makes sense.
Re: How should this verse be translated?
Yes, Homer, if the bread referred to Christ, then #1 would make sense.
But DOES the bread refer to Christ? The immediately preceding sentence speaks of "bread which we break", which must be the physical bread of "communion".
The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Verse 16
It surely seems that the bread of verse 17 refers to the same bread as that mentioned in verse 16, and if it does, then #1 makes the least sense to me. For a single loaf being used for communion is not the REASON that we are one body. It seems to me that it's the other way around. Because we are one body we use a single loaf to represent that one body.
I didn't know I'd be expressing my view so soon. But as I understand it, Paul meant #2.
But DOES the bread refer to Christ? The immediately preceding sentence speaks of "bread which we break", which must be the physical bread of "communion".
The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Verse 16
It surely seems that the bread of verse 17 refers to the same bread as that mentioned in verse 16, and if it does, then #1 makes the least sense to me. For a single loaf being used for communion is not the REASON that we are one body. It seems to me that it's the other way around. Because we are one body we use a single loaf to represent that one body.
I didn't know I'd be expressing my view so soon. But as I understand it, Paul meant #2.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: How should this verse be translated?
Paidion, are you saying that the bread in communion symbolizes the unity of the body of believers?
Re: How should this verse be translated?
No bolt of enlightenment I’m afraid, just some thoughts.
1 Corinthians 10 (NASB)
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3and all ate the same spiritual food;
4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were;
I think these verses earlier in the chapter may help to clarify what Paul was trying to say, and so my understanding of v 16 & 17 would also go with #1 as being the closest, but like this [with my comment in brackets]:
14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
15I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.
16Is not the cup of blessing which we bless [actual cup at communion] a sharing [symbolically] in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break [actual bread at communion] a sharing [symbolically] in the body of Christ?
17Since there is one [spiritual] bread, [i.e.Christ] we who are many are one body [Christ’s, spiritually]; for we all partake of the one [spiritual] bread.
I think Paul was merely emphasising the symbolic meaning of partaking of communion, and what he seems to be saying is :
– we who partake of communion are thus acknowledging we belong to Christ, and are a part of His body (just as all the Israelites had agreed to be God’s people in the wilderness)
- and just like the Israelites rebelled, we can also be in the same danger of doing so, and liable to the same consequences:
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
22Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we?
1 Corinthians 10 (NASB)
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3and all ate the same spiritual food;
4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were;
I think these verses earlier in the chapter may help to clarify what Paul was trying to say, and so my understanding of v 16 & 17 would also go with #1 as being the closest, but like this [with my comment in brackets]:
14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
15I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.
16Is not the cup of blessing which we bless [actual cup at communion] a sharing [symbolically] in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break [actual bread at communion] a sharing [symbolically] in the body of Christ?
17Since there is one [spiritual] bread, [i.e.Christ] we who are many are one body [Christ’s, spiritually]; for we all partake of the one [spiritual] bread.
I think Paul was merely emphasising the symbolic meaning of partaking of communion, and what he seems to be saying is :
– we who partake of communion are thus acknowledging we belong to Christ, and are a part of His body (just as all the Israelites had agreed to be God’s people in the wilderness)
- and just like the Israelites rebelled, we can also be in the same danger of doing so, and liable to the same consequences:
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
22Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we?
Suzana
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If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher
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If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher
Re: How should this verse be translated?
I wasn't saying it, but if I understand the passage correctly, then Paul was saying it. Christ also said of the loaf in the first communion (or "eucharist") with His disciples: "This is my Body." The loaf is one. His Body is one. His Church is one. It is catholic (universal) in scope. In I Corinthians 11, Paul spoke the importance of "discerning the body" when taking the bread and wine. I wonder if "discerning the body" refers to seeing the truth of the one and only Church of Christ, and of being aware of the unity of the Body of Christ. Christ prayed that His disciples might be ONE as He and the Father are one. That's quite a unity! Jesus and His Father are in perfect harmony!Michelle wrote:Paidion, are you saying that the bread in communion symbolizes the unity of the body of believers?
I can't find it right now, but one of the early Christian writers stated that when the Christians he knew participated in the communion, prayers similar to the following were prayed when giving thanks for the bread:
"As many countless grains of wheat were gathered from many hills to form this ONE bread, so may your Church be gathered together!"
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: How should this verse be translated?
Paidion,
Here's my take on the passage:
1 Corinthians 11:23-29 (New King James Version)
23. For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24. and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is (represents) My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
25. In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup (the contents represent) is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
26. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.
27. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning (the congregation who constitute) the Lord’s body.
Paul uses the word body, soma, numerous times in 1 Corinthians and at least four ways. Most often in reference to our physical bodies, then to the Church, to Christ's physical body, and even as a reference to heavenly bodies such as the stars, etc. I think you are correct in your view that "body" in verse 29 refers metaphorically to the congregation, "the body of Christ". Having said that, the remembrance is about Christ, and what He has done, and does, and will do for us. That is the subject of vs.23-26.
In vs. 27-29 Paul's focus is on the abuse of the Lord's supper in that some of them were mistreating their fellow brothers and sisters who constitute that mystical "body of Christ". It is my belief that Paul's reference to "examine yourself" is in regard to their treatment of their brothers and sisters during the love feast/communion, and not an individualistic focus on self and what a wretched person we are or have been.
Two of my most recent books, "A Gathered People" by John Mark Hicks, and "Pagan Christianity" make the same point rather convincingly that the eucharist, to the early Christians, was a time of joyous corporate celebration rather than a time of individual introspection. Taking note of the attitude of the earliest Christians in the Book of Acts, I think they are right.
Here's my take on the passage:
1 Corinthians 11:23-29 (New King James Version)
23. For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24. and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is (represents) My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
25. In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup (the contents represent) is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
26. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.
27. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning (the congregation who constitute) the Lord’s body.
Paul uses the word body, soma, numerous times in 1 Corinthians and at least four ways. Most often in reference to our physical bodies, then to the Church, to Christ's physical body, and even as a reference to heavenly bodies such as the stars, etc. I think you are correct in your view that "body" in verse 29 refers metaphorically to the congregation, "the body of Christ". Having said that, the remembrance is about Christ, and what He has done, and does, and will do for us. That is the subject of vs.23-26.
In vs. 27-29 Paul's focus is on the abuse of the Lord's supper in that some of them were mistreating their fellow brothers and sisters who constitute that mystical "body of Christ". It is my belief that Paul's reference to "examine yourself" is in regard to their treatment of their brothers and sisters during the love feast/communion, and not an individualistic focus on self and what a wretched person we are or have been.
Two of my most recent books, "A Gathered People" by John Mark Hicks, and "Pagan Christianity" make the same point rather convincingly that the eucharist, to the early Christians, was a time of joyous corporate celebration rather than a time of individual introspection. Taking note of the attitude of the earliest Christians in the Book of Acts, I think they are right.
Re: How should this verse be translated?
Paidion, I don't disagree with what you've written here. The unity of the Body seems so important and so glorious that it shouldn't be taken lightly.Paidion wrote:I wasn't saying it, but if I understand the passage correctly, then Paul was saying it. Christ also said of the loaf in the first communion (or "eucharist") with His disciples: "This is my Body." The loaf is one. His Body is one. His Church is one. It is catholic (universal) in scope. In I Corinthians 11, Paul spoke the importance of "discerning the body" when taking the bread and wine. I wonder if "discerning the body" refers to seeing the truth of the one and only Church of Christ, and of being aware of the unity of the Body of Christ. Christ prayed that His disciples might be ONE as He and the Father are one. That's quite a unity! Jesus and His Father are in perfect harmony!Michelle wrote:Paidion, are you saying that the bread in communion symbolizes the unity of the body of believers?
I can't find it right now, but one of the early Christian writers stated that when the Christians he knew participated in the communion, prayers similar to the following were prayed when giving thanks for the bread:
"As many countless grains of wheat were gathered from many hills to form this ONE bread, so may your Church be gathered together!"
I have the feeling that you have something more to say about this that you are holding back. Do you think that this verse has been wrongly used for a long time? If so, how, and for what purpose, do you suppose it's been misused?
If not, please accept my apology in advance. I'm sorry to have jumped to a wrong conclusion. (Not that it's unusual for me to do that.)