Corporate or Individually Imputed Righteousness?(2 Cor 5:21)

[Homer]

Paidion wrote:

I suggest that being saved from that wrath (from correction in Gehenna) is a side benefit

It is not enough that in your imagination you have found "correction" in hell, but now we learn it is synonymous with wrath! And who can prove you wrong from the scriptures since neither idea is found there?

[steve7150]

It is not enough that in your imagination you have found "correction" in hell, but now we learn it is synonymous with wrath! And who can prove you wrong from the scriptures since neither idea is found there?Homer





Paidion's return certainly has lit a fire under you Homer. "Hell" is not really a biblical word, it simply means grave. The lake of fire shows every indication it is for the purging of sin and in 1 Cor 15 which is the consummation of the ages there is no indication of eternal imprisonment but rather quite the opposite as God will be "all in all."
Don't blame Paidion , blame Origen who was a giant of an intellect. Eternal torment's credit goes to Augustine a man who could'nt even read greek.

[look2jesus]

Hello steve7150,

The lake of fire shows every indication it is for the purging of sin and in 1 Cor 15 which is the consummation of the ages there is no indication of eternal imprisonment but rather quite the opposite as God will be "all in all."

I suppose, then, that we can look forward to, one day, having fellowship with the Devil.

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. ESV Rev 20:10

[steve7150]

I suppose, then, that we can look forward to, one day, having fellowship with the Devil.







Well if the devil is indeed saved, he just would'nt be that same old devil we knew before, but the "restoration of all things" may include him.

[look2jesus]

Paidion,

Salvation is from the wrath of God? I recall reading that some child in Sunday School once said, "Oh, now I get it! Jesus died to save us from God!"

I have failed to find any passage which unequivocally states that we are saved from the wrath of God

For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. ESV – Eph. 5:5-8

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. ESV – Col. 3:5-7

I think these verses, in so many words, unequivocally state that we are saved from the wrath of God.

Those who do think He died to save us from the wrath of God, normally say that we are saved by His death.

However, I don't think Christ's death was necessary to secure that forgiveness.

My reading of Hebrews would force me to disagree with you here.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come…he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption…Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant...Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins…But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. ESV – Heb. 9:11-28 (excerpts)

If we are walking (by the enabling grace of God) the narrow road that leads to life, and do not swerve off it, we can be assured of God's forgiveness.

Of course, I don't disagree with you here. Blessings

l2j

[steve7150]

I suppose, then, that we can look forward to, one day, having fellowship with the Devil.






Just want to add that many including Steve G believe Satan was created to be our adversary or tester from the beginning of his creation therefore if this is true why would he be punished eternally for being a faithful servant of God?

[Paidion]

My reading of Hebrews would force me to disagree with you here.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come…he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption…Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant...Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins…But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. ESV – Heb. 9:11-28 (excerpts)

Unfortunately, excerpts do not give the meaning of the writer. Excerpts often end up being proof texts. Let's consider verses 18-26 in sequence:

18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
The author compares the first covenant under the law with the second under Christ. Both involve blood.

19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”
21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
The author continues to show how the shedding of blood of calves and goats ratified the first covenant.

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

He affirms that under the law of Moses, the only way to receive forgiveness of sins was by shedding the blood of animals in sacrifice.

23 ¶ Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

He now indicates that these sacrificial rites were but copies of the reality. The reality involves better sacrifices.

24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.


Christ, as our high priest, on our behalf, has entered into heaven itself to appear directly in the presence of God ---- and not merely into a temple built by human beings.

25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world.

Christ's purification of His people did not require an annual sacrifice such as was performed by the priests under the law, but required only a single sacrifice, the sacrifice of Himself.

But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Unfortunately, many translations including the ESV, follow the AV by translating the Greek as "put away sin". This is too weak. Lexicons indicate that a more accurate translation is "abolish sin" or "do away with sin." After having given several differences between Christ's sacrifice according to the New Covenant and the animal sacrifices according to the Old, (appearing directly in God's presence rather than appearing before Him in a temple, offering a single sacrifice, that of Himself for all time, rather than annually), the writer now indicates the biggest contrast of all. Through Christ's sacrifice, our sins are not merely forgiven (as in the sacrifices under the law) but have the potential of being done away with completely!
Christ sacrificed Himself to do away with sin!

If we have entered the door of salvation, by submitting to the authority of Christ, and becoming His disciple, then we are on the narrow path that leads to life. As long as we stay on this path, our sins, and our propensity for sinning are being dealt with through Christ's sacrifice for us. As long as we stay on this path, of course, God will not hold our past sin against us. Forgiveness may be considered to be a natural accompaniment to our being delivered from sin by Christ.

In our day, there is an emphasis on forgiveness of sin rather than deliverance from sin. Too many people are only too willing to escape the consequences of sin, but love their sins so much that they are not willing to be delivered from them.

Many claim to be "saved". But what is meant by that? Does it merely mean to have escaped the fires of Gehenna? If a person is saved from a lion, he is delivered from that lion. If a person is saved from bankruptcy, he is delivered from bankruptcy. If a person is saved from sin, he is delivered from sin.

It is the indwelling badness, ready to produce bad actions, that we need to be delivered from. Against this badness if a man will not strive, he is left to commit evil and reap the consequences. To be saved from these consequences, would be no deliverance; it would be an immediate, ever deepening damnation. It is the evil in our being...the miserable fact that the very child of God does not care for his father and will not obey him, causing us to desire wrongly, act wrongly, or, where we try not to act wrongly, yet making it impossible for us not to feel wrongly --- this is what he came to deliver us from;--- not the things we have done, but the possibility of doing such things any more. George MacDonald from The Hope of the Gospel Chapter 1 "Salvation from Sin".

[Homer]

Paidion wrote:

Through Christ's sacrifice, our sins are not merely forgiven (as in the sacrifices under the law) but have the potential of being done away with completely!

Could you elaborate on your view regarding this matter? It is most important that we are clear here. Does Jesus' death on the cross bring us potential forgiveness or conditional forgiveness? And do you believe this potential doing away with sin in our lives ever becomes a reality such that we will never sin again? It seems to me that Jesus' sacrifice brought 100% forgiveness of our sins and if he died so that we would be enabled to become sinless he 100% failed, unless you consider partial success as adequate. Non-Christians can have partial success in doing right, so what's the difference for believers? I thought it was the indwelling Spirit that made the difference.

And you wrote:

Many claim to be "saved". But what is meant by that? Does it merely mean to have escaped the fires of Gehenna? If a person is saved from a lion, he is delivered from that lion.

The lion story seems to be a poor metaphor. I think the lion gets another bite out of the best of us fairly often.

[Paidion]

Could you elaborate on your view regarding this matter? It is most important that we are clear here. Does Jesus' death on the cross bring us potential forgiveness or conditional forgiveness?

Yes, I can elaborate on my view. But first you need to read it with understanding. I have attempted to state in the clearest way I know how that Jesus' death doesn't bring forgiveness of any kind. It brings deliverance from sin.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

Yes, I can elaborate on my view. But first you need to read it with understanding. I have attempted to state in the clearest way I know how that Jesus' death doesn't bring forgiveness of any kind. It brings deliverance from sin.

Perhaps the English language is used differently in Canada. Could you first explain what you meant by the word "merely"? As I read your sentence, I understood you to be saying "our sins are not only" forgiven. If this is not what you meant, why is merely in the sentence? But then without it you would be saying that Jesus' sacrifice could not accomplish what you think (or appear to think) the Old Testament sacrifices accomplished.

Your words:

Through Christ's sacrifice, our sins are not merely forgiven (as in the sacrifices under the law) but have the potential of being done away with completely!