Hebrews warnings - about AD70 NOT foreiting salvation?

[_Ely]

I've been thinkiing about something recently. Hebrews contains some of the most powerful teachings that believers can indeed forfeit eternal life and finally perish. Or does it?

I know how you amillennialists and (partial and fully-realised) preterists understand AD70 to be in view in very many NT passages, and often with good cause. Why not Hebrews too?

The writer of the epistle is clearly exhorting the readers not to get sucked back into Judaism. But why? I've always assumed because if they did, they would end up in hell (or at least not in the Kingdom of Heaven). But let's have another look at three key passages form the book and consider whether something else might be in view:

1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? chapter 2

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and have fallen away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. chapter 6

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. chapter 10

All this talk of punsihment and burning and fiery indignation. Rather than warnign against forfeiting salvation, could these famous passages merely have been using typically portentuous language to warn believers not to get swept up in the awful judgement which was about to consume God's enemies (unbelieving Jews) in AD70?

Comments eagerly desired.

Ely

[Guest]

I believe you may be onto something, Ely!

[_Ely]

I believe you may be onto something, Ely!

I guess one thing I would say on the contrary, is that the writer often holds forth an incentive which don't seem to about escaping AD70. For example:

For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. chapter 3

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end chapter 3

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 “ For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. chapter 10

These passages appear to make final salvation the incentive to perseverance. If this be the case, then it seems reasonable that those warning passages are about final perdition.

Maybe they have a near and far fulfilment in mind. AD70 first, and the lake of fire ultimately?

Ely

[Guest]

hi ely--

to accept the proposed explanation would of course require us to believe that the writer of Hebrews had prophetic knowledge of what would actually occur in 70 AD . if the writer had actual prophetic knowledge, why not simply warn (in plain language) that if you are a jew in jerusalem in 70 AD you are in for big trouble?

the language seems to be way too cryptic (in my eyes) to constitute a warning about something that would take place in the not too distant future.

just my opinion, though.

TK

[Guest]

to accept the proposed explanation would of course require us to believe that the writer of Hebrews had prophetic knowledge of what would actually occur in 70 AD . if the writer had actual prophetic knowledge, why not simply warn (in plain language) that if you are a jew in jerusalem in 70 AD you are in for big trouble?

He may have, through the teachings of Jesus, which prophesied the coming judgement on Jerusalem. And weren't there predictions of the prophets as well of the events of AD 70?

the language seems to be way too cryptic (in my eyes) to constitute a warning about something that would take place in the not too distant future.

I agree, in part.
Perhaps these verses in Hebrews should be seen as a mixture of current, individual application mixed with an understanding of impending, corporate judgement.

For instance, it is always true that continual rejection of God brings punishment, in different ways. I see the statements as metaphorically applicable towards individual actions, but there are also overtones of judgement on Jews who rejected Christ (especially in chapter 10).

At our point in history looking back, it can be easy to read AD 70 into more verses due to our knowledge of the event.

Dave

[Guest]

dave wrote:

At our point in history looking back, it can be easy to read AD 70 into more verses due to our knowledge of the event.

i guess this is sort of the point i was trying to make.

when jesus was giving the Olivet discourse, he didn't say "70 AD" but we now know, looking back, that that was the actual year. the writer of Hebrews seems to be saying things differently than the way Jesus said them; i.e. it appears the writer was not simply parroting the words of Jesus, possibly because he didnt hear them directly or through someone who did. or possibly because he was not talking about the same thing, namely the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

however, it is a very good "catch" by Ely. You may be right!

TK

[Guest]

The writer of Hebrews seems to clearly believe that the Levitical system is about to pass away, having been superceded by Christ. He/she also clearly sees God's judgement looming on the horizon.

[Guest]

Ely,

Could we believe that the warning about persisting willfuly in sin, Hebrews 10:26-27, no longer applies post AD70? I believe this is a timeless principle, applicable under the old and new covenents.

[_Ely]

Ely,

Could we believe that the warning about persisting willfuly in sin, Hebrews 10:26-27, no longer applies post AD70? I believe this is a timeless principle, applicable under the old and new covenents.

I agree, although I think it's at least possible and maybe advisable to see some obtuse references to AD70 in such places. I think that the main thrust of this and other such warnings in Hebrews is that believers need to perserevere in the faith otherwise they will be finally lost. The main reason I think this is because many of the incentives in Hebrews are to do with final salvation (3:5-6, 12-14, 10:35-39 etc.) and it would seem natural to see two options being given: Final salvaton of our souls on one side and final destruction of souls (whether it be anhialation or everlasting torment) on the other.

[_Les Wright]

Ely,

This post started as a reponse to your first post, but has turned into a bit of a 'where's 70AD' in Hebrews..., or perhaps 'where possibly is 70AD in Hebrews'

Chp 2

I think that the 'so great' in this verse is a comparison between the new and old covenants.... a two word summary of Hebrews is the 'better book' in reference to the new convenant.


Chp6

I think this one is an example from nature applied to Christians, not 70AD.

Chp8

V13 the new covenant makes the old covenant obsolete by implication, there is only room for one covenant at a time, and the old covenant was soon to vanish away in the destruction of the temple in 70 AD

Chp10

In this passage, I thnk v27,30,31 may be referring to judgment for those who were involved in temple worship in 70 AD. v37,38 seem to be more clearly not re: 2nd coming, but 70 AD.
-v25 the Day may be 70 AD here

Chp12

- v12ff compare with Is 35:3, kingdom age and its features are drawn from to describe the Christian age, they were enduring persecution from the Jews who were going to receive God’s vengeance in the destruction of the temple in 70 AD (Is 35:4, Lk 21:22), esp if the things that are made in v27 = temple and old covenant as opposed to 'created things' in general.

Chp13

v14 may be alluding to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, we seek spiritual Jerusalem, or ultimate realization of New Jerusalem at end time.

THats my 2 cents.
Les
PS Has anybody else noticed the time of their posting changing? I posted this 2 days ago.. but it has today's date on it?