Who killed Jesus?

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morbo3000
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Who killed Jesus?

Post by morbo3000 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:09 pm

The Pharisees, chief priests, Sadducees and scribes?

The Jews?

God?

You and me?

Studying the Synoptics, the answer is clear: the religious rulers by intent.
Followed by the crowd, but only after they'd been riled up by the religious rulers.

In John, it gets complicated when he periodically interchanges the words "The Jews" for religious rulers.

Was the crowd at his crucifixion large enough to implicate "the Jews?"

I don't know the biblical basis for the statement "you and I crucified him." That must be Paul.

In the Synoptics, I think it is clear: the chief priests and religious rulers killed Jesus. He was a political and religious martyr. It gets fuzzy everywhere else.

What do you believe? Please annotate with scripture.


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steve
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Re: Who killed Jesus?

Post by steve » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:34 pm

morbo3000,

I agree with you.

The idea that "you and I" killed Jesus is an abstract idea, with some merit, based on the fact that Jesus said no one could take His life from Him, but that He was voluntarily laying it down at His Father's command (John 10:17-18). The question of why the Father commanded Him to do so is answered, biblically, by Paul's phrase, "Christ died for our sins" (e.g., 1 Cor.15:3). By extrapolation, we could say that we, by sinning, provided the necessity, or at least the occasion, of His death.

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Re: Who killed Jesus?

Post by morbo3000 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:49 pm

Thanks Steve

What do you make of John's gospel implicating "The Jews?"

He alternates between the religious leaders and "the Jews" in his description of the proceedings. Is he using the titles synonymously?

i am surprised how much I've misunderstood this event by nodding politely at everything I've been taught.
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Re: Who killed Jesus?

Post by steve » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:41 pm

I think John and other New Testament writers considered that the Jews of Jesus' time were given a choice between two alternatives:

The first was to become followers of Jesus, after which, for them, the term "Jew" was replaced with the word "disciple" (and, later, with the word "Christian"—Acts 11:26).

The other alternative was to stick with the Jewish status quo, governed by the chief priests, which actively persecuted Christ. Many of the unconverted Jews probably were not particularly hostile, nor murderous, toward Christ. However, insofar as they rejected Him as their King, they stood in solidarity with their leaders, who were His killers.

Not only John, but Paul, referred to "the Jews" as those who killed Jesus (1 Thes.2:14-16). Paul knew, of course, that the actual number of those actively involved in Christ's condemnation were only a small fraction of the Jewish population—but Christ, and later the apostles, strongly urged every Jew to distance himself from the corrupt Jewish establishment, and to embrace the Kingdom of God instead (e.g., Acts 2:40). Those who were apathetic, simply stood in solidarity with their official leaders, and found themselves on the wrong side of the national judgment of God, in AD 70.

We know that it is common for Westerners to blame "the Muslims" for radical Jihadism. I think everyone knows that most Muslim people do not commit acts of terror—and that many of them must abhor the actions of the few. But, in the minds of many, the fact that most Muslims, by their silence, stand with their brethren who do commit such acts, rather than denouncing them and their murderous religion, renders the silent Muslims complicit in the behavior of the openly murderous.

The early Christians had reason to speak similarly of "the Jews," and they did so. I am sure, though, that they recognized that there were some among the apathetic, who, despite their social inertia and nominal continuation of association with the hostile Jewish society, were personally "not far from the kingdom of God" (Mark 12:34).

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Re: Who killed Jesus?

Post by morbo3000 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:24 pm

Thanks Steve. Also for the reference to Thessalonians. I didn't know where to start looking for Paul's opinion on the matter.
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dizerner

Re: Who killed Jesus?

Post by dizerner » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:47 pm

Interesting I just made a post similar to this on another forum. There is often an inter-connectedness among human events, isn't there. Who participates in what action to what extent. I was just reading a news article of a girlfriend that badgered her depressed boyfriend into suicide (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... andom_1_na if you're interested I don't recommend it, will make one's blood boil). There was an episode of a murder mystery I watched once where every one of the suspects ended up having a part in the murder—by collaborating they had hoped to dispel any focus on each individual one. And that's my answer: F. All of the above. All of us at one time or another have had murder in our hearts.

But ultimately the primary answer is God. Why? When Lot sent his daughters out, who raped them? Well not Lot, but yes, actually Lot. This is not to cheaply push the causally responsible chain for all things to God—that is it to say, I am not arguing in some way God does all that is done. But rather that in the intention of God, sending Christ to die, and anticipating and participating in his death, God was the primary causal agent responsible for it; not the only, mind you. Christ's blood that Pilate tried to wash his hands of and all that crowd cried let it be on us, that blood was not alone on God's hands, and yet this was the Lamb of God. This was the Lamb, and we all know what lambs are for in Judaism. They're not for petting.

Annotate with Scripture? Um, ok.

Isaiah 53
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

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