Why was Peter loathe to profess love for Christ?

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Homer
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Re: Why was Peter loathe to profess love for Christ?

Post by Homer » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:57 am

On another note, D.A. Carson discussed this subject in his book Exegetical Fallacies. I do not currently have access to the book, but I recall reading something there that might contribute to this discussion.
Carson wrote that "for various reasons, I doubt very much that there is an intended distinction" in John's use of agapao and phileo. (p.51) Carson goes on to point out that there are also changes in Jesus' responses to Peter and that "very few preachers judge these changes to be of fundamental importance to the meaning of the passage". (p.53)

Note:

"Feed my lambs"

"Shepherd my sheep"

"Feed my sheep"

Carson points out that there is some difference between "lambs" and "sheep", also some difference between "to shepherd" and "to feed" and comments that:
in this context it is difficult to see a fundamental theological or linguistic or syntactical reason for the changes. We seem to be in the realm of slight variation for the sake of vague things like "feel" or 'style". In any case, my point is that it is rather strange to insist on a semantic distinction between the two words for "to love" in this context, and not on small distinctions between other pairs of words in the same context. p.53

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psimmond
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Re: Why was Peter loathe to profess love for Christ?

Post by psimmond » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:01 pm

Like Homer pointed out, Peter and Jesus likely weren't speaking to each other in Greek. And as others have pointed out agapao and phileo are used interchangeably in scripture.

Pastors have had a field day with this, but I don't see it as significant.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
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Paidion
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Re: Why was Peter loathe to profess love for Christ?

Post by Paidion » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:23 pm

Brenden wrote: However, I pointed out that in the parallel accounts of Luke 11:43 and Matthew 23:6 the word Agape is used in Luke and Philea in Matthew.


I looked at those passages a little more carefully, Brenden, and I now I am not so sure that they ARE parallel passages. For in the Luke passage, Jesus is addressing the Pharisees, while in the Matthew passage, He is speaking ABOUT the scribes and Pharisees. So these may have been two different occasions, and thus He used two different words. This is not enough to conclude that the words are synonyms.

I still suspect that "αγαπαω" means "I love" in the deep sense of serving another or even sacrificing oneself for others as Jesus Himself did on the cross, and that "φιλεω" means "I like" or I am fond of", and is merely an emotion. Emotions come and go, but LOVE is more stable.

It wouldn't make sense to command someone to have an emotion. You can't just turn on an emotion. And sure enough, every command in the New Testament to love God or your enemies, or your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, uses the word "αγαπαω" to express that command. You can look up every instance in the New Testament of the word ""φιλεω" and in no case is anyone commanded to carry out this emotion, that is to like or be fond of anyone.
Last edited by Paidion on Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

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Re: Why was Peter loathe to profess love for Christ?

Post by Paidion » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:26 pm

Psimmond wrote:Like Homer pointed out, Peter and Jesus likely weren't speaking to each other in Greek.
Perhaps not. But the writers chose those particular Greek words to express what they said, and so the difference may have held in Aramaic as well.
Paidion

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Re: Why was Peter loathe to profess love for Christ?

Post by psimmond » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:58 pm

The passage in John proves that both agapao (αγαπας) and phileo (φιλω) are transitive verbs. If you can command someone to agapao you, you can just as easily command someone to phileo you.

Agapao does not mean divine love, or sacrificial love, or unconditional love; it just means love:
  • 2 Tim 4:10: for Demas has deserted me, because he loved (agapao) this present world, and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

    2 Sam. 13:15, LXX: After this [the rape of his sister], Amnon hated Tamar with such intensity that the hatred he hated her with was greater than the love (agape/ahabah) he had loved (agapao/ahab) her with. “Get out of here! ” he said.
And phileo does not just mean "fond of":
  • 1 Cor 16:22: If anyone does not love (phileo) the Lord, a curse be on him. Marana tha that is, Lord, come!

    John 5:20: For the Father loves (phileo) the Son and shows Him everything He is doing, and He will show Him greater works than these so that you will be amazed.

    John 11:3: So the sisters sent a message to Him: “Lord, the one You love (phileo) is sick.”

    John 16:27: For the Father Himself loves (phileo) you, because you have loved (phileo) Me and have believed that I came from God.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
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Re: Why was Peter loathe to profess love for Christ?

Post by Paidion » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:24 pm

psimmond, you wrote:The passage in John proves that both agapao (αγαπας) and phileo (φιλω) are transitive verbs. If you can command someone to agapao you, you can just as easily command someone to phileo you.
I don't question the ability of commanding someone to be fond of you. But that command cannot be carried out, since emotions come and go, and we have little if any control over them. Don't you think that might be the reason that the writers of the New Testament do not use "φιλεω" for "love" when reporting the command to love?
Agapao does not mean divine love, or sacrificial love, or unconditional love; it just means love:
I have never claimed it to mean "divine love" or "unconditional love", but I do claim it to mean "love in action", and that usually if not always involves a greater or lesser degee of sacrifice. It is never a mere feeling.
2 Tim 4:10: for Demas has deserted me, because he loved (agapao) this present world, and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
Even here, "love" can mean action. In this case, it may have been more than merely being fond of worldly things. Perhaps Demas was devoted to the things of the world, so that he served these things even at the expense of other things that he should have been doing. There may have even been some self-sacrifice involved.
2 Sam. 13:15, LXX: After this [the rape of his sister], Amnon hated Tamar with such intensity that the hatred he hated her with was greater than the love (agape/ahabah) he had loved (agapao/ahab) her with. “Get out of here! ” he said.
This seems to be the strongest support for your position. In reading the account, Amnon seemed to have only desire for his half-sister. I wouldn't call it even "fondness". Perhaps "αγαπαω" was used even for "desire" in the days in which the Septugint was translated.
And phileo does not just mean "fond of":

1 Cor 16:22: If anyone does not love (phileo) the Lord, a curse be on him. Marana tha that is, Lord, come!

John 5:20: For the Father loves (phileo) the Son and shows Him everything He is doing, and He will show Him greater works than these so that you will be amazed.

John 11:3: So the sisters sent a message to Him: “Lord, the one You love (phileo) is sick.”

John 16:27: For the Father Himself loves (phileo) you, because you have loved (phileo) Me and have believed that I came from God
How do you know that "φιλεω" means anything more than "like" or "is fond of" in all of these verses?
Paidion

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