Matt 23:39 (RE: Michael Brown debate)

[KyleB]

"...for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "

Steve, what is your take on this verse? I ask because Dr. Brown uses it as part of his eschatology about Israel needing to be converted before the 2nd coming can occur. I don't think it came up in the debate, but I realized that I don't really know how to take Jesus' meaning on this.

Thanks,
-Kyle

[steve]

I have never seen this statement as necessarily predictive of anyone being converted. I think Jesus was saying:

"I have been visibly active among you for some years now, but my public appearances are done. I am going away, and the only people who will continue to see me will be my disciples [cf. John 14:19-23]. Any of you can become one of my disciples when you are prepared to acknowledge that I have come in the name of the Lord, and rejoice in that awareness. You won't see me any more until and unless you do so."

If He meant more than this, it is not clear to me. There is no obvious reference to the second coming.

[jarrod]

Sorry for interjecting since you directed the question to Steve, but I thought I would give my simple thoughts on this verse:



Jesus is not mentioning any prophecies that are yet to come, but simply lamenting over the fact that Jerusalem has rejected their promised Messiah that was spoken of by the prophets (1 Peter 1:10-12). They were to be judged for their rejection and their house left desolate (70AD) , but they were never going to experience the blessings of a relationship with God again ("see Him no more") until they acknowledged their Savior Jesus Christ ("He who comes in the name of the Lord"). I don't believe a natural reading of this passage would lead someone to believe that Jesus was meaning this is something they would collectively acknowledge in some future setting before the 2nd coming.

[jarrod]

Wow Steve, you are quick. You posted while I was replying

[steve]

That is amazing! Jarrod and I posted simultaneously, and said exactly the same things! Confirmation!

[KyleB]

That is amazing! Jarrod and I posted simultaneously, and said exactly the same things! Confirmation!

Ooh, spooky.

So, you guys would take "seeing him" in sort of a spiritual sense, rather than necessarily viewing him with the eyes?

[steve7150]

Matthew 23:39
"for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the LORD!’" (NKJV)






Jesus could have said "unless you say" instead of "until" and that would have left no room for any second coming possibility in this. I will try to see if Brown references this in his books.

[DanielGracely]

I don't believe a natural reading of this passage would lead someone to believe that Jesus was meaning this is something they would collectively acknowledge in some future setting before the 2nd coming.

But surely the “natural reading” for each of us follows our particular presuppositions. Preterist presuppositions yield the kind of “natural reading” you suggest, interpreting the “seeing” and “coming” as believing and receiving.

But to someone like Dr. Brown or myself, it seems inconceivable that it doesn’t mean more than that, because of the irony of the passage. For in the N.T. the phrase “cometh in the name of the Lord” occurs only in the gospels, and then only when either the people shouted it along with “Hosanna!” during the Triumphal Entry, or here, a day after the Triumphal Entry, when Jesus says (in Matthew 23:39, as well as in Luke 13:35) that they won’t see him again until they say, “Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.’ ” Imagine when the disciples heard Jesus say that. Wouldn’t they have thought: “But it was just yesterday that Israel said those very words! Were you so sorrowful and weeping that you didn’t hear them? But surely you must have! But then, why do you discount those words?" The answer (we note) is that Israel that day uttered words without acknowledging their need of Him as their Savior, wanting only a political deliverer. That much would be evident in a few days, when they shouted a far different thing before Pilate.

And so, it seems natural to me that, in effect, Christ is saying, “You’re going to say the same thing again, but next time with understanding.”

What, then, is really the “natural reading”? Is it going to be one which, for Jarrod and Steve and for consistency’s sake, will of necessity have to be one in which you now further spiritualize the matter, so that the crowd’s use of the words “Blessed is He who cometh in the name of the Lord” pertains nothing to his actual physical descent into Jerusalem, but only to the spiritual blessings they may now expect to receive, having ‘seen’ Him, however fickle and temporary that would turn out to be?

I don’t find that kind of interpretation natural at all. It seems important here that we ought to recognize the similarity of wording between the crowd and Jesus’ echoing of it’s words.

[jarrod]

But surely what each of us finds is the “natural reading” will depend upon one’s presuppositions.

I apologize -- you are correct. I should have qualified that statement with a (natural reading) "to myself," because that is what I meant.

But he and I would take a more literal approach. Personally, I see great irony in Christ’s statement, which is one of a whole litany of ironic statements in the gospels, many of them missed by readers.

Hmm, I really fail to see the irony that you are speaking of, but like you said, it is missed by many readers (including myself).

But, in fact, the Jews, from the Day of Triumphal Entry, have never since said, “Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.”

I think this is where we start to differ. Obviously this stems from our hermeneutic and understanding of other passages that we are importing into this text, but I don't foresee the "Jews" collectively recognizing Jesus as the Messiah at any time in the future. I believe the true Israel has always been a remnant of people faithful to God and not a group of people defined by ethnicity or a national status. Perhaps that is not what you meant. However, I think we definitely have seen Jewish people, since Jesus spoke these words, accept their true Messiah.

Will that be the tract you choose now that I have pointed out to you the deliberate irony Jesus used by quoting the crowd’s own statement?

I don't feel the need to solely "spiritualize," as you say, the crowds statement because they physically saw our Messiah. However, there were many present who physically saw Him and yet missed the spiritual aspect that He was in fact who He claimed to be. So while there definitely is the physical component to those present during this time, I think we would be amiss to say there was not a spiritual component of faith and understanding. That being said, since Jesus' ascension many have proclaimed "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (including myself) and I/we have not physically seen Him.

Jrod

[steve]

Daniel,

I am going to have to continue agreeing with Jarrod. I also do not see the irony of which you speak. The view I presented above is the view I held for many years prior to my hearing of preterism, so it isn't influenced by any such prejudices. I was a dispensationalist for years, and do not remember ever seeing a reference to the second coming in this verse...even though my teachers probably did.

The reference to seeing Jesus that I gave from John 14 is very pertinent, and I don't know whether you looked at it. It was in the upper room, perhaps the day after the statement we are discussing had been uttered publicly. This latter statement—very much on the same theme of unbelievers not "seeing" Jesus any more—was made privately to the disciples:

John 14:19-23:

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."