John 16:12-15. Huh?

[TK]

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. NKJV

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” NIV

"I still have many things to tell you, but you can't handle them now. But when the Friend comes, the Spirit of the Truth, he will take you by the hand and guide you into all the truth there is. He won't draw attention to himself, but will make sense out of what is about to happen and, indeed, out of all that I have done and said. He will honor me; he will take from me and deliver it to you. Everything the Father has is also mine. That is why I've said, 'He takes from me and delivers to you.' MSG

I am having a little trouble with these verses.

1) it seems that these verses indicate the HS is "subordinate" to Jesus-- i.e. the HS only does what Jesus authorizes him to do. Can this be correct?

2) Jesus says that the HS will receive from me (Jesus) what to declare to them (the disciples). What is Jesus talking about?

3) Why does Jesus make the statement "All that belongs to the Father is mine" before saying "That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Unfortunately even the MSG paraphrase doesnt really sort these verses out for me very well.

TK

[jriccitelli]

If first you consider that Jesus is the ‘Word’, and we know that the Holy Spirit reveals, convicts, reminds (and discloses) to us His ‘Word’.
And although we are given the Holy Spirit, yet it seems we still must 'listen, hear and read' Gods Word to ‘know’ it.
This does in fact seem to be the case in our lives (Although, at times of course Jesus ‘could’ put it in a person w/o hearing, but it seems that would be an uncommon experience. i.e. Faith comes by hearing. Rom.10:14)

And second, I would not think the Spirit is subordinate in nature, no less than Jesus is to the Father (that is for us, at this time) It seems that God desires for us to understand that there is order, specification, delegation, setting apart, for purpose within the GodHead.

So it is when Jesus says; "That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
He is saying the Holy Spirit will make known to you my Words, and also the 'Words the Father' has given to Jesus.
Although the disciples 'themselves' and much more also are 'given' to Jesus (i.e. vs.17:6), I do not think Jesus is referring to 'people' in vs.16:15, as the thing given, since He says I will 'disclose', 'reveal' these things to them.
Jesus seems to be saying all the ‘Words’ of ‘mine’ the Holy Spirit will disclose to you. (As well as the Fathers words)
And in verse 15 "All that belongs to the Father is mine" could be referring to all the Fathers ‘words’ are mine, and will be disclosed to you through the Holy Spirit. (Since Jesus is God ‘and’ the Word. Jesus could be saying the Scriptures, Moses and all the Prophets will be disclosed to them)

And this seems to be what happened to them, and what happens to us!

[steve]

The Message paraphrase is more muddled than the literal translations! Another reason to hate that book!

I think Jesus is saying that, just as He never spoke "of Himself" (meaning, from His own authority, but from His Father's), so also the Holy Spirit will not speak "of Himself" (that is, of His own authority, but from that of Jesus). Thus, just as the Father spoke to us through Jesus, when Jesus was here, so also Jesus will speak to us through the Holy Spirit, when Jesus is absent.

The last sentence, which causes such perplexity, means, I think, the following:

What you hear from the Spirit will be that which He gets from me to give to you, just as what you have heard from me is what I have gotten from the Father. The Father delegates everything to me, and I delegate everything to the Holy Spirit. He will be communicating with you on my behalf—or, to put it another way, I will still be communicating to you through Him.

The point is that the disciples have been privileged to hear from God through Jesus. In His absence, they will still be privileged to hear from God, through the Holy Spirit. The word of God will still be coming through Christ, though, who will send word by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit receives the instructions from Christ, who receives them from the Father. Thus Christ remains the intermediary between God and men. The Father gives everything to Jesus. Thus, whatever the Spirit gives us from God has been received from the things which are Christ's things (those which the Father has given Him).

I little confusing, perhaps. Hopefully understandable, though.

[TK]

Thanks guys, that helps.

Hey Steve-- in your spare time why don't you write your own paraphrase. You can call it "The Greggage."

TK

[steve]

Great idea! I'll put that on the list—but not the short list.

[Paidion]

I would say that there is a very good reason that the spirit of Christ is subordinate to Him. Simply because it is Christ's spirit, His personality. Though Jesus Himself is in heaven, He can extend His personality to any point in the universe, and He does so especially within the hearts of His people. The same with the Father. Jesus said, "The Father and I will come and make our dwelling with you." How do They do that? Through their spirit. They share the same spirit.

Did you ever wonder why Jesus had to depart this life before the advocate could come?

But I tell you the reality: It is to your advantage that I depart, for if I do not depart, the advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send it to you. (John 16:7)

Is there any reason why the advocate, the spirit of Christ, could not come while He dwelt as a man upon the earth? No reason at all that I can see — IF the spirit is a third divine Individual. But if the advocate, the spirit, is the personality of Christ Himself, then there is a very good reason. Christ's personality was confined to His body while He was here on earth. Prior and subsequent to His incarnation, He could extend His spirit to any place He wished, but as long as He was in the natural body, His spirit was confined to that body.

The apostle Paul stated that the Lord Jesus IS the spirit! (2 Corinthians 3:18). I take that to mean that He is the same divine Individual as the spirit.

We read in the NT about the spirit of God, and about the spirit of Christ (They share the same spirit). If the holy spirit were a third Person, we might expect to find "the spirit of the Spirit" somewhere in the New Testament, but we never do.

Have you ever noticed that modern Christians pray to the holy spirit as if it were a distinct Individual? They also sing hymns to the holy spirit: "Come Holy Spirit, we need thee...", etc. But not once in the NT do we ever find anyone praying or singing to the holy spirit.

[Homer]

Paidion,

But I tell you the reality: It is to your advantage that I depart, for if I do not depart, the advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send it to you. (John 16:7)

How do you justify translating a masculine pronoun "it"?

[Paidion]

.

[darinhouston]

Is there any reason why the advocate, the spirit of Christ, could not come while He dwelt as a man upon the earth? No reason at all that I can see — IF the spirit is a third divine Individual. But if the advocate, the spirit, is the personality of Christ Himself, then there is a very good reason. Christ's personality was confined to His body while He was here on earth. Prior and subsequent to His incarnation, He could extend His spirit to any place He wished, but as long as He was in the natural body, His spirit was confined to that body.

I've struggled with this off an on over the years. I can't say I have the answer, but a line of thought might go something like this: "The spirit of Christ can and has come over the years upon people, moved them, done things, etc., but it/he could not dwell in ANY man much less you and me until mankind was either sinless or the effect of sin was taken care of. It wasn't until Jesus came as the sinless one in whom the spirit could dwell fully (not sure if that requires confinement/exclusive indwelling) and until Jesus left as the atoning one so that the effects of sin could be dealt with as to the sinful ones and therefore the spirit could dwell fully in those who believed and followed Him and accepted his atoning work.

[Paidion]

Homer, please consider these French sentences:

Je vois la fenêtre. Elle est ouvert.

Here is my translation:

I see the window. It is open.

Notice I have translated the feminine pronoun as "it". The pronoun "elle" is feminine not because windows are female, but because the word "window" is feminine, and pronouns must agree in gender with the nouns to which they refer.

Greek is similar in this respect. In the case in question, the masculine pronoun in the accusative case "αυτον" refers to the masculine word "παρακλητος" (advocate), and thus must agree in gender. It has no bearing on whether the advocate is male, female, or non-sexual.

However, having said that, it's okay with me if someone wants to translate the pronoun as "he". For the spirit of God, and of Jesus, is personal — although not a third Person.