Practical Applications of Forgiveness

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darinhouston
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Practical Applications of Forgiveness

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:50 pm

In our Sermon on the Mount study (based on Steve's lectures), we have learned that forgiveness carries two aspects - the first is entirely up to us and that we are to forgive another immediately and fully without condition in our heart as to our own attitude towards another who wrongs us - while the second concerns formal restoration of the relationship and is conditional on the person's repentance.

My question is this:

As part of our child discipline, our model introduces notions of repentance, forgiveness, and restoration (following aspects of the Growing Kids God's Way program). Following "chastisement" (spanking) or other discipline, we have our child acknowledge that it was wrong for him to do X, that next time he would do Y, and ask for forgiveness. While largely "rote" this is to give them a vocabulary and instinctive approach later in life when they have wronged someone as to how to restore the relationship, etc.
GKGW wrote:Chapter Thirteen ~ Repentance, Forgiveness, and Restoration: One goal of the corrective side of discipline is to bring children to repentance. But how do we distinguish true repentance from regret? The Ezzos show that sin damages the fellowship aspect of a relationship. Teaching a child simply to hate sin is insufficient without his understanding that it hinders the relationship. This type of instruction begins somewhere around four years of age. The book of Judges shows the cycle of sin-repentance-forgiveness-restoration very clearly. Repentance begins with the offender. Forgiveness begins with the offended. Restoration closes the offense and buries it, restoring the relationship to its former state. When property is involved in the offense, restoration should be made as an outward sign of repentance.

There is an important emphasis on attitude. Saying “I’m sorry” expresses one’s emotion, acknowledging an unintentional mistake. However, confessing the sin and saying “Will you forgive me?” is an act of great humility that places the offender in his proper position before the one offended. Although an attitude may be correct and repentance present, consequences must still be initiated. The life of David is a clear example of consequences for sin, even in the presence of true repentance.

One very practical point when implementing chastisement is that children often do need a few minutes to recompose themselves and develop the attitude of repentance and the desire to restore. What to do after chastisement was discussed in Session Twelve. Parents must be sensitive as to how their child indicates he wishes to restore. It may range from a single hug, to helping the parent, or spending time with the parent.
The problem is, I never had a problem with this until going through the SOTM study -- at the end of the "discipline" scenario (depending on the infraction) I might go on as if nothing had happened with full restoration of the relationship -- penalty paid -- while other times I might want him to continue to feel the damage that doing wrong does to a relationship and let him know that while I forgive him, I'm not happy with him and don't really want to play, etc. -- now, I'm wondering if that is consistent with true forgiveness of the latter type and whether it might lead him to have a wrong view of forgiveness.

Put another way, I should have already "forgiven" him (of the first type) even before the chastisement setting so use of "forgiveness" in that context seems inappropriate; and afterwards maybe I shouldn't call it forgiveness (of the second type) to imply restoration if there hasn't yet been full restoration (such as perhaps I don't believe he was truly repentant and have restored trust yet).

Any thoughts/suggestions?

Notes and questions from the lectures leading to this quandry can be seen here: http://www.duphorne.com/sotm/Week04_handout.pdf
Relevant portions of the audio are near the end of this lecture http://www.duphorne.com/sotm/Week04_audio_mercy.mp3

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darinhouston
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Re: Practical Applications of Forgiveness

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:31 am

Just listened to Friday's show -- coincidentally, a caller had a question on forgiveness, and they discussed much of Steve's teaching on forgiveness/mercy from the Beatitudes lectures.

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Suzana
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Re: Practical Applications of Forgiveness

Post by Suzana » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:50 am

I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I think the main thing is to let kids know we'll always love them no matter what – but also definitely need to show them that wrong choices will also have undesirable consequences; perhaps you could say you forgive them, but that because of the gravity of the offence there is further discipline needed, and perhaps spell it out – like no play for a time or whatever is appropriate to their age [rather than an indefinite period of an attitude of disapproval or aloofness determined by your feelings]; I would think you'd have to play it by ear, according to their response; and it's probably a process to be built on in stages as they mature.
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Re: Practical Applications of Forgiveness

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:10 am

Suzana wrote:I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I think the main thing is to let kids know we'll always love them no matter what – but also definitely need to show them that wrong choices will also have undesirable consequences; perhaps you could say you forgive them, but that because of the gravity of the offence there is further discipline needed, and perhaps spell it out – like no play for a time or whatever is appropriate to their age [rather than an indefinite period of an attitude of disapproval or aloofness determined by your feelings]; I would think you'd have to play it by ear, according to their response; and it's probably a process to be built on in stages as they mature.
Thanks, Suzana -- this is where the rubber meets the road and most folks won't talk about these things in this detail -- we definitely apply the plenty of love and additional consequences as appropriate -- my question's really about the "attitude of disapproval or aloofness determined by my feelings" as you put it. If part of my objective is not just behavior modification but also character building and to highlight how sin damages our "relationships" with others (and ultimately with God) should there not be relational consequences as well? If so, I'm not sure how to work that out -- God, it seems, does have perfect knowledge of the extent of our repentance, while I do not have the same with my children. I don't want my son to grow up merely measuring the cost of tangible consequences -- he's VERY relational and needing of people and their acceptance (he's 4), and relational consequences may well end up being his best deterrent to bad actions. I don't want to lay a guilt trip on him, but I also see a deficiency in tangible consequences alone -- (as if it's a mere transaction - if it's worth losing X, I'll just do Y - I may even get away with it).

Further, though, I am actually hurt when he chooses to violate the rules I've set out for him to protect him and I think God is likewise hurt when we do so -- While I'm able to put away that hurt pretty well, why hide those feelings and deprive him of the knowledge of that harm just because he's received the tangible consequences and words and hugs of love and forgiveness (as if to say, "ok, you go off now and enjoy your clean slate while I nurse my broken heart...")

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Suzana
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Re: Practical Applications of Forgiveness

Post by Suzana » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:45 pm

-- my question's really about the "attitude of disapproval or aloofness determined by my feelings" as you put it. If part of my objective is not just behavior modification but also character building and to highlight how sin damages our "relationships" with others (and ultimately with God) should there not be relational consequences as well? If so, I'm not sure how to work that out -- God, it seems, does have perfect knowledge of the extent of our repentance, while I do not have the same with my children. I don't want my son to grow up merely measuring the cost of tangible consequences -- he's VERY relational and needing of people and their acceptance (he's 4), and relational consequences may well end up being his best deterrent to bad actions. I don't want to lay a guilt trip on him, but I also see a deficiency in tangible consequences alone..

My concern would be that if the child has genuinely repented, but the parent continues to be disapproving or aloof, this would be confusing to a child (it's not very nice when adults do it to each other either – I've seen it among married couples for instance).

Might this reaction give a wrong concept of God in the other direction – eg with regards to coming to salvation – might prolonged punishment/condemnation lay a foundation for the idea that repentance is not enough in the first instance, that we aren't really saved by the grace of God; that we can't come to God 'just as I am' but need to change ourselves first and clean up our act before God will accept us?

Just thinking out loud – I may be drawing wrong conclusions here.

Perhaps, especially if it's a young or sensitive child, it may be enough to express disappointment/hurt/sorrow for the child's offence at the time of applying discipline; this may be distressing enough to a child who loves the parent, and surely would over time teach the lesson you wish to impart?
(A four year old may not understand why a parent is seemingly continuing to withhold affection).
Perhaps as the child matures there may be a place for exploring ways to enforce this concept of damaged relationships, but obviously tailored to the individual child, their understanding and likely response.
Suzana
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darinhouston
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Re: Practical Applications of Forgiveness

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:22 pm

You raise some good points, and your point about drawing the wrong conclusion about God is precisely my concern. One thing I should clarify -- I don't do the "emotional control aloofness" sort of thing I think you're perceiving (I've experienced that myself). I'm really talking about simply deciding not to play or cater in a way that goes overboard to suggest all's perfectly well, and it's usually only for an hour or so. I typically just say in such an instance "Daddy doesn't really want to play with you right now, I forgive you and love you very much, but I'm just not in the wanting to play with you right now." I'm still doing it with a gentle "hug" etc. It just doesn't seem right to have "party time" after such a thing.

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Re: Practical Applications of Forgiveness

Post by Suzana » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:52 pm

I guess that sounds reasonable.

Ms sister, who is visiting thinks forgiveness should be a case of 'forgive & forget'; also that an intelligent four year old will soon pick up on the pattern and simply place that into his consideration in the "transaction" - as in "I want Y, it will mean losing X plus dad won't play with me for an hour" .

Hopefully others will have further insights to offer.
Suzana
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