"Father, forgive them..."

[Guest]

Hey all--

Last night my wife asked me a question which, quite shockingly, I had never considered before.

When Jesus said from the cross: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," what was the effect of these words? What was Jesus' intention? Were those who were jeering at him indeed forgiven, even if they were not seeking forgiveness? My wife's initial question was "are those people who Jesus asked his father to forgive in heaven?" She was taking a broader view of possibly ALL of their sins being forgiven, although I would think this not to be the case; however I am not positive.

What do you all think of this?

[Guest]

Jesus once said:

Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him." Luke 17:3,4

True forgiveness is conditional upon repentance. We often use "forgive" in a different sense today. What is frequently meant is to let go of our ill feelings toward someone, and of course we can do that whether they repent or not. But the Biblical meaning of forgiveness ought not to be understood as tantamount to this current meaning. For God never forgives anyone unless he repents.

In the case about which your wife inquired, people often assume that God, in response to Jesus' prayer, granted immediate forgiveness to those who were putting Jesus to death. I don't think so. I think they were forgiven when they repented, and thankfully we have been provided a scriptural record of that event:

But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel... it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved'...

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
... This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses...

Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. Acts 2:14-42

Yes, they were "cut to the heart" at Peter's words, convicted for having put to death the Messiah whom God had sent to them. They not only repented, but they were baptized as Peter instructed, becoming full-fledged disciples.

They were forgiven all right! Everyone who becomes a disciple has been forgiven.

[Guest]

thanks paidion-

i agree with you, and i forgot about the mass conversion in acts 2.

But, assuming Jesus knew what we know (that repentance is required for forgiveness), then what exactly was his prayer on the cross all about? do you think the prayer was in fact answered on the day of pentecost? you seem to imply this but i want to make sure this is what you meant.

TK

[Guest]

Yes, I think even in the midst of His terrible agony, Jesus prayed for His killers out of His great heart of love, and that His prayer was answered on that day in which they repented and were baptized.

The spirit of Jesus Himself was also with them on that day, for He had promised His disciples that the Father and He would make their dwelling with them.

[Guest]

I read a blogger's thoughts about this very passage just this week. She felt that those responsible for Jesus' crucifixion were deserving of swift, deadly, and immediate judgment, and that Christ's prayer was for the Father to withhold his judgment in order to give time for repentance. So according to her, the prayer was answered the day of the crucifixion when the killers did not fall over dead, and sure enough, they did eventually repent.

[Guest]

interesting, michelle-- i too thought that perhaps jesus' prayer was to prevent his mockers being struck dead on the spot-- but paidion's explanation makes good sense.

TK

[Guest]

An interesting idea, Michelle, and one that never occurred to me.

However, It doesn't seem to me that the Father's choice to delay their judgment is tantamount to forgiving them.

Another example of the Father delaying the judgment which will take place at Christ's coming is the following:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Does the fact that the Lord is delaying his judgment out of His desire that all should reach repentance, mean that all those persons for whom He is waiting to repent, have been forgiven?

[Guest]

Does the fact that the Lord is delaying his judgment out of His desire that all should reach repentance, mean that all those persons for whom He is waiting to repent, have been forgiven?

Well, yeah, maybe (not really sure;) if forgiveness means delayed judgment and not forever put aside judgment. The word for forgiveness can be translated let as in leave as it is in the parable of the parable of the wheat and tares. (Matt 13:24-30) So, (I think) it could mean that God withholds judgment until repentance occurs; however, the sinner is not yet justified until he repents. If you can't tell, I'm still unsure about this.

[Guest]

Hello, gentlefolks,

And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

This is interesting, because it broaches the issue of personal culpability when one is in a state of ignorance.

Does God always damn someone for a sin if they are ignorant of its being a sin? I suspect not.

It seems feasible that Jesus might plead for mercy toward his persecutors on the grounds of ignorance (cf. Luke 12:47-48 ). That is, if the comment (found only in Luke) is not actually a piece of embroidery, intended to mitigate Gentile responsibility in the crucifixion of Jesus.


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

Emmett-

portraying the jeering jews as "ignorant" stretches crudility a tad; i can see your point for the roman soldiers, possibly.

TK