John 16:12-15. Huh?

[Paidion]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Darin. They make sense if Jesus meant, "The advocate cannot come to you TO DWELL PERMANENTLY."

[darinhouston]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Darin. They make sense if Jesus meant, "The advocate cannot come to you TO DWELL PERMANENTLY."

I fail to see permanence as the issue -- I'm supposing sin corrupted us so that the spirit couldn't dwell in/with us at all. Acting on us or influencing us is not the same thing as dwelling within us - sharing spiritual space within our beings (whatever that means).

[Paidion]

In that case, Darin, how did Jesus' departure make it possible for the spirit to dwell in/with us? Were we less corrupted just because Jesus ascended into heaven?

[steve]

The writer of Hebrews likens the ascension of Jesus into heaven to the high priest entering the holy of holies and presenting the blood of the sacrifice there on the mercy seat (Heb.9:11-12). If this is a true correspondence, then the sacrifice made on the cross was officially applied when Jesus ascended. This suggests the pardon awaited the ascension. This being so, it would seem that God's people could not be fully "purified" (as the tabernacle had earlier been purified to become the habitation of God) until this blood was applied (Heb.9:13-14).

[Homer]

Paidion,

If the Holy Spirit is an "it" how do you explain the Holy Spirit speaking and referring to himself in the first person singular (in the Greek)?

Acts 13:2
New King James Version (NKJV)

2. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

[darinhouston]

I'm interested in Paidion's response -- speaking for myself, however, my own spirit is personal and I would speak in the first person singular when speaking about myself -- my self today is both body and spirit -- I might use "it" and I might use "I" to refer to either in a particular context -- that doesn't prove either point -- when I die, it is my spirit which will be with the Lord, but it is still "I" and not "it" as pertains the present issue. Perhaps that is the same with Christ and His Spirit.

[Homer]

This is what I put together recently, for someone at church, on the Holy Spirit being personal as opposed to being an "it".

Regarding the Holy Spirit being personal rather than being an inanimate power, or force, I would offer the following comments and scriptures:

Matthew 28:19
(All scriptures from New King James Version)
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Here Jesus commands baptism in (Greek preposition eis which literally means into) the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The phase "into the name of" is only used in scripture in reference to an act done with regard to a person. It does not seem credible to me that Jesus meant we are baptized into an inanimate power.

And in the following Psalm, God is said to be present in His Spirit. God is a spirit,and is present in His Spirit:

Psalm 139:7
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?

And in Isaiah God's Spirit can be grieved. The Hebrew word here translated grieved is awtsab, meaning to worry, feel pain, be angered:

Isaiah 63:10-14
10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:

“ Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
12 Who led them by the right hand of Moses,
With His glorious arm,
Dividing the water before them
To make for Himself an everlasting name,
13 Who led them through the deep,
As a horse in the wilderness,
That they might not stumble?”
14 As a beast goes down into the valley,
And the Spirit of the LORD causes him to rest,
So You lead Your people,
To make Yourself a glorious name.

We find the same expressed of the Spirit in Ephesians where the Greek word lupeo is used. Lupeo means to distress, sorrow, grieve. So we again see emotions attributed to the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:30
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Jesus promised He would personally be present "where two or three are gathered in my name". I believe His presemce is personal in the Holy Spirit:

John 14:18
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

The Holy Spirit will both teach and bring things to the remembrance of the apostles:

John 14:26
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit hears, guides, and speaks:

John 16:13-14
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

We hear it argued that the use of personal pronouns regarding the Holy Spirit does not mean anything because personal pronouns are used in reference to inanimate objects such as ships, etc., but here the Holy Spirit gives a command and applies a 1st perrson singular pronoun to himself:

Acts 13:2
2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

And here the Holy Spirit is said to speak to the Churches:

Revelation 2:7
7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

It is difficult for me to view the Holy Spirit as inanimate when the Spirit is repeatedly referred to as performing actions experiencing feelings as persons do.

[KyleB]

Paidion,

If the Holy Spirit is an "it" how do you explain the Holy Spirit speaking and referring to himself in the first person singular (in the Greek)?

Acts 13:2
New King James Version (NKJV)

2. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

I don't think the word "it" and being "personal" are mutually exclusive. I think we all agree here that we would refer to God as "He", yet we might say something like "They heard the voice of God speaking, and it said...."

What I just said above could be used to support what Paidion said...

However, having said that, it's okay with me if someone wants to translate the pronoun as "he". For the spirit of God, and of Jesus, is personal — although not a third Person.

...although you don't have to take it that way.

On the other hand, speaking of a child in the womb whose sex is yet unknown, you might say "it kicked!", without any of your hearers understanding you to be removing the personhood of the baby. This use of "it" I think is undeniably appropriate, yet cannot be said to imply impersonality.

-Kyle

[steve7150]

If the Holy Spirit is a person would'nt he be the Father of Jesus?

[jriccitelli]

The giving of the Spirit in regards to Jesus having to first ascend on high is fitting, as it does say in John 7:39
'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified.
This would fit with Hebrews 1:3 'And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high'
And Hebrews 9:8 'The Holy Spirit signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing'

Jesus says the Father will send 'another', the sense of this statement implies just that; 'another', not Him not the Father.
The same for verse 25, the father is sending 'someone', you don’t send yourself. And He, or it, is sent in Jesus name, so Jesus is not sending himself in his own name;
John 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. John 14:25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
It is certainly hard to distinguish the three apart in most instances, but at times Jesus does distinguish the individuality of each. But to discount the 'person' of the Holy Spirit just because it says "the Lord Jesus IS the spirit" would be to say we could discount Jesus as a separate person from the father since the Father too is Spirit.
Certainly all three compose what we know as the One God, but to think that 'because they are all Spirit and all God' we cannot allow persons within the Godhead, this would be based on what? What God has said? God seems to have revealed a separate person in the person of Christ, and Jesus is definitely (Purposefully implying) revealing 'another' person, otherwise he is just creating something for nothing, and I think it is not for nothing.

I notice the Spirit was with them (14:17), for sure the Holy Spirit was abiding with Jesus, hence with them also as was the Father. Yet it seems the Spirit was not yet given to anyone as a personal abiding as was the promise, as spoke of in Acts 1:4, note God doesn't seem to be willing to explain the timing;
"It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:7-8

(TK you should know better than to be satisfied with a good simple answer, cmon, not gonna happen)