Lk 22:36-- Jesus's instructions to buy a sword

[Bud]

Hi Steve 7150, how's it goin brother? You wrote: " Even a small knife would contradict everything Jesus had previously said about not resisting evil, about turning the other cheek about forgiveness. I think the sword must be symbolic." (Sorry I can't make my posts look better with more proper spacing etc. I'm using an older smartphone, please bear with me ).

I looked in Vines and they referenced Field, notes on the translation of the NT saying about the word sword in it's use in Luke 22, possibly "a knife".

Now I think what some might be overlooking is the main use of "a knife" which in my opinion is utilitarian.

Jesus is mentioning other utilitarian items: bag, money, shoes.

So His call to acquire knives need not necessarily contradict His teaching with the only explanation being symbolism.

We are accustomed to traveling in a modern way where the possession of a knife is not highly prized for it's utility. But ask even a modern hiker and see if a knife is not an essential part of their kit.

[Paidion]

Bud, although Greek lexicons do indicate that the Greek word (Strongs 3162) can mean "knife", when you look up all occurrences of the word in the New Testament, it seems that it is usually used in connection with killing someone.

Mt 10:34 "do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword <3162>.
Mt 26:47 and while he was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords <3162> and clubs, came from the chief priests and elders of the people.
Mt 26:51 and suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword <3162>, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
Mt 26:52 but Jesus said to him, "put your sword <3162> in its place, for all who take the sword <3162> will perish by the sword <3162>.
Mt 26:55 in that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "have you come out, as against a robber, with swords <3162> and clubs to take me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize me.
Mr 14:43 and immediately, while he was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords <3162> and clubs, came from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
Mr 14:47 and one of those who stood by drew his sword <3162> and struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
Mr 14:48 then Jesus answered and said to them, "have you come out, as against a robber, with swords <3162> and clubs to take me?
Lu 21:24 "and they will fall by the edge of the sword <3162>, and be led away captive into all nations. and Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Lu 22:36 then he said to them, "but now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword <3162>, let him sell his garment and buy one.
Lu 22:38 so they said, "lord, look, here are two swords <3162>." and he said to them, "it is enough."
Lu 22:49 when those around him saw what was going to happen, they said to him, "lord, shall we strike with the sword <3162>?"
Lu 22:52 then Jesus said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to him, "have you come out, as against a robber, with swords <3162> and clubs?
Joh 18:10 then Simon Peter, having a sword <3162>, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. the servant’s name was Malchus.
Joh 18:11 so Jesus said to Peter, "put your sword <3162> into the sheath. shall I not drink the cup which my father has given me?"
Ac 12:2 then he killed James the brother of John with the sword <3162>.
Ac 16:27 and the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword <3162> and was about to kill himself.
Ro 8:35 who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword <3162>?
Ro 13:4 for he is god’s minister to you for good. but if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword <3162> in vain; for he is god’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Eph 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword <3162> of the spirit, which is the word of God;
Heb 4:12 for the word of god is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword <3162>, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 11:34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword <3162>, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Heb 11:37 they were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword <3162>. they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented—
Re 6:4 another horse, fiery red, went out. and it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword <3162>.
Re 13:10 he who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword <3162> must be killed with the sword <3162>. here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Re 13:14 and he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword <3162> and lived.

[Bud]

Paidion, I appreciate all the effort you put in that last post, it almost makes me want to cave, especially because if it turns out to be a spiritual lesson Jesus is talking about, I would want to know it. But I'm not surprised that it might be rare for the utilitarian to be rarely mentioned if at all in epic books. Also, the passages where Jesus' followers have "swords", maybe those should be knives too. After all a knife can be used as a weapon. Not that I'm saying Jesus would have condoned it. I'm only holding these thoughts loosely, and you did manage to weaken my grip a bit more.

Thank you,

[Roberto]

Is it possible that He had them carry swords so that He could correct them when they used it, as a lesson? When the ear was cut off, He taught His lesson?

[steve7150]

Is it possible that He had them carry swords so that He could correct them when they used it, as a lesson? When the ear was cut off, He taught His lesson?

Roberto









I think the main point is when he says "but now" and then quotes a prophecy about his death. What would they need if he were to be missing? A sword or a knife?
No, something that cuts like a sword, the Word of God.

[Singalphile]

If the sword has symbolic or spiritual meaning, then one would have to think the same about the purse and bag, I think.

In what way do we consider that Jesus was "numbered with the transgressors?" His meaning has to do with that, it seems.

I think TK's 3rd-post "theory" (as he wrote it) is pretty good.

[Bud]

I'm now comfortable with Steve 7150's theory here: "Maybe the words "but now" meant that they now had to provide for themselves and Jesus was simply telling them to take the typical natural precautions one would take on a trip though still not meaning a real sword but a symbol of self protection."

Except I believe the "sword" should be knife. And it is not used symbolically.

[RickC]

Greetings!

Luke 22:38 (NKJV)
So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”

I looked up this verse in Greek. The conjunction de ("And" He said to them) differs from a common NT conjunction, kai ("and"). When de is used it can convey a contrast to something former. I'm no Greek expert, but verse 38b could probably be translated: "Moreover He said to them." The idea being that, when the disciples said they did have two swords . . . that Jesus could be saying something like, "What's more, and In that case, I add". . . ("It is enough").

In any event, what 2 disciples could possibly already have a sword? and for what purpose?

I think it's quite possible (if not likely) that Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot owned swords--short swords or daggers--due to their (former) affiliation(s) with:
1) The Zealot Sect (Simon) and,
2) The Sicarri Sect (Judas).
Many scholars think Judas' 'surname' comes from "sicarri". Sicarii is the Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-man' or later contract-killer.

Josephus describes how the Sicarri killed their enemies by stealth--with hidden daggers or small swords. After the deed was done they would cry in a false terror in order to blend in with the crowds so as to not to be identified as the killers.

The Zealots, if I'm not mistaken, were founded by Judas the Galilean at around 6BC (cf. Acts 5:37). Judas' "son" Menahem, (who was probably his grandson) further led the group at the 66AD Revolt.

Some have suggested the Sicarri were a sub-group of Zealots. Others think the Sicarri broke from the Zealots some time in the first century.

So . . . .

Lk 22:37 (Lexham translation, Jesus said)
"For I tell you that this that is written must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was counted with the criminals.’ For indeed, what is written about me is being fulfilled.”
(was quoting from Is 53:12)
12 Therefore, I will divide to him a portion among the many,
and with the strong ones he will divide bounty,
because he poured his life out to death
and was counted with the transgressors;
and he was the one who bore the sin of many
and will intercede for the transgressors.

Of Jesus' disciples at least 2 were in groups that were considered criminal. Not only by Rome, but by Jews in other sects. The Zealots and/or Sicarri were the major two first century terrorist groups.

Thus, Jesus being "numbered" among, or counted with, the transgressors could mean several things. Among which was His ability to really associate with outcasts. Jesus not only related with all segments of His society, but also represented them before God. Jesus was numbered among the disenfranchised and among all of the people.

So that's my theory of Why Two Swords?

I work nites and have to go to bed.

Thanks TK!

Y'all Take Care!

[steve7150]

3. If Jesus really wanted every man among them to be armed with swords—so much so that He advised selling their garments in order to purchase them—then why did He say "It is enough," when they only had two swords among them?

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steve






If Jesus words are symbolic then possibly the "garments" or outer covering can mean the Law of Moses which can be kept externally and the Sword may mean Jesus words or commands which cut like a Sword. (Heb 4.12-13)
So guys replace your Law of Moses with my commands because or "but now" i won't be with you.

[psimmond]

Like some of the others, I don't think "sword" is symbolic since the other items don't appear to be symbolic. It seems if Jesus expected them to use swords to resist arrest, he would have wanted all of them to be armed. Instead he just wanted to make sure they had one sword.

I wonder if it was illegal for Jewish civilians to carry swords. If so, then by having swords they were lawbreakers (transgressors) and thus fulfilling prophesy.