What is the 'wind' analogy in John 3?

Apollos
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Re: What is the 'wind' analogy in John 3?

Post by Apollos » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:25 pm

Paidion wrote:the same Greek word is used for both "wind" and "spirit".
While the word pneuma can refer to the wind, it is not the usual word for it; the standard word (anemos if memory serves me correct) for wind is used in every other occurrence of the word 'wind' in the NT; only here is the word pneuma used to describe the wind. Everywhere else it means 'spirit'.
I suspect that Jesus and Nicodemus were conversing in Hebrew, so that John wished to maintain the use of a word which conveys both the meaning of 'wind' and 'spirit' (corresponding to ruach) to maintain the pun.

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Re: What is the 'wind' analogy in John 3?

Post by charleswest » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:33 pm

John 3:8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

It seems to me that the Book of Acts contains a variety of situations that illustrate John 3:8.

Acts 16:6-10 comes to mind.

Acts 16:6: Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
>>>> did not please the Spirit to go to Asia

Acts 16:7: After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
>>>> did not please the Spirit to go to Bithynia.

Acts 16:8: And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
Acts 16:9: And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
>>>> the Spirit sent a vision to Paul

Acts 16:10: And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
>>>> it pleased the Sprit to send Paul and his team to Macedonia

>>>> at any given moment, it appears that no one knew, either Paul or Satan, where Paul would go next.

Thus is fulfilled the Words of Christ; "but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth" (John 3:8)

A great military strategy. Keeping operations secret until the time, thus preventing Satan from interfering.
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Paidion
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Re: What is the 'wind' analogy in John 3?

Post by Paidion » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:45 pm

Apollos wrote:While the word pneuma can refer to the wind, it is not the usual word for it; the standard word (anemos if memory serves me correct) for wind is used in every other occurrence of the word 'wind' in the NT; only here is the word pneuma used to describe the wind. Everywhere else it means 'spirit'.
It is true that "anemos" is used more often thant "pneuma" for "wind". It is also true that in no other place in the New Testament is "pneuma" used for "wind". However, I suspect that that is but an accident of language. The verbal form "pneO" (blow) is used 7 times.

I don't know how many times in the Septuagint that "pneuma" is used for "wind" but in the very first verse that mentions wind (Genesis 8:1) it is employed. I also found it in Exodus 15:10. That's as far as I checked.
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Re: What is the 'wind' analogy in John 3?

Post by Apollos » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:29 pm

Paidion wrote: It is true that "anemos" is used more often thant "pneuma" for "wind".

Did you run a search on thesaurus graecae linguae? I'm wondering Paidion how you know that my claim is true? My understanding is that you have not read Greek literature outside of the Bible, and so I'd be interested in knowing how you even know that anemos is used more (an online resource?).

It is also true that in no other place in the New Testament is "pneuma" used for "wind". However, I suspect that that is but an accident of language. The verbal form "pneO" (blow) is used 7 times.
It's not an accident at all. anemos is not simply used more than pneuma - anemos is the standard word used in Greek literature. In all my reading of Greek, I am not sure if I've ever come across the word pneuma to refer to wind. I might have, but not very often if I have. The LXX is the exception to this, not the NT, and the LXX is no doubt influenced in this by the Hebrew.

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Re: What is the 'wind' analogy in John 3?

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:46 pm

Apollos wrote:Did you run a search on thesaurus graecae linguae?
Until you mentioned it, I had never heard of "thesaurus graecae linguae". You got me interested, and so I did a search for it. I was unable to figure out how to do a search in Greek. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
I'm wondering Paidion how you know that my claim is true? My understanding is that you have not read Greek literature outside of the Bible, and so I'd be interested in knowing how you even know that anemos is used more (an online resource?).
I inferrred it from looking the words up in the Bible, including the Septuagint.
It's not an accident at all. anemos is not simply used more than pneuma - anemos is the standard word used in Greek literature.
I believe your statement to be erroneous. Although "anemos" is used more frequently, "pneuma" is often used as well. I still think it is accidental that "pneuma" is used only once in the New Testament for "wind".
In all my reading of Greek, I am not sure if I've ever come across the word pneuma to refer to wind. I might have, but not very often if I have. The LXX is the exception to this, not the NT, and the LXX is no doubt influenced in this by the Hebrew.
I wanted to check out whether the use of "pneuma" for wind in other Greek literature is absent or rare as you seem to assume. So I found a site which has Greek literature from many sources. I looked up all instances of "pneuma". In the first four I happened to examine, the word was used for "wind" in two of them! I know that's a pretty small sample, but it is still an indicator that this use of the word in other Greek literature is not as rare as you suppose. Here are the quotes. I will not give the references yet. Since you are widely read in Greek literature, I want you to translate them for me, who, according to your understanding, is a beginner who has not read Greek literature outside of the Bible. After you have done that, I'll give you references.


…ἐμαθον δ’ εὐρθποροι ὁ θαλασσας νομενας πνευματι λαβρῳ ἐσυραν ἀλσος πισυνοι λεπτοδομοις ποντιον


...χειρους οἱς οὐκ ἐναντια νομοθεπη τεον οἱ μεν γε που πνευματα παντοια και δι’ ἐξλησεις ἀλλοκοτοι τε εἰσιν και ἐναισιοι
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Apollos
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Re: What is the 'wind' analogy in John 3?

Post by Apollos » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:10 am

Paidion wrote: Until you mentioned it, I had never heard of "thesaurus graecae linguae". You got me interested, and so I did a search for it. I was unable to figure out how to do a search in Greek. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
It lists where a word is used in virtually all Greek literature.
I believe your statement to be erroneous. Although "anemos" is used more frequently, "pneuma" is often used as well. I still think it is accidental that "pneuma" is used only once in the New Testament for "wind".
I think we are talking past each other. We both agree that the word anemos is used more. You infer that pneuma must be used nearly as often as the LXX uses both, and that the NT - in which the word wind occurs forty times - is anomalous.But in my opinion, that is too wide a sample to be mere accident, and the LXX can be explained by it being a translation.

I wanted to check out whether the use of "pneuma" for wind in other Greek literature is absent or rare as you seem to assume. So I found a site which has Greek literature from many sources. I looked up all instances of "pneuma". In the first four I happened to examine, the word was used for "wind" in two of them! I know that's a pretty small sample, but it is still an indicator that this use of the word in other Greek literature is not as rare as you suppose. Here are the quotes. I will not give the references yet. Since you are widely read in Greek literature, I want you to translate them for me, who, according to your understanding, is a beginner who has not read Greek literature outside of the Bible. After you have done that, I'll give you references.
[/quote]

Paidion, i was a PhD classicist; if you don't believe me, that's fine. But I do think that this tendency of yours to make dogmatic statements about things you are not informed on is not a positive one - the statement you threw out about Pentecostal history is an example. It's simply not fair to those reading your posts. You said that what I said about anemos being used more in wider Greek literature was true, but then you admitted this was just an inference on your part. If you want to be an expert on Greek, take some classes in the wider literature - I can guarantee you that it will be so difficult, stressful, and challenging, that you will be cured from every offering facile generalizations again! You'll be expected to read it - pages of it, chapters of it, books of it.

I looked at your quote, and got stuck on a number of words which simply weren't in the dictionary, and the syntax didn't seem to make much sense either, though if I knew the words perhaps it would make sense. It also contained letter clusters which don't exist in Greek as far as I'm aware - this made me wonder if you had edited the quotes, or if they are in modern Greek.

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