"On earth as it is in heaven..."

[steve]

It seems like I am perpetually torn between conservative traditional non-charismatic christianity and the desire or the hope that there is indeed something more. I will state that the greatest amount of spiritual growth I have experienced has been in a more charismatic environment, although as stated I am not 100% comfortable in that environment.

This is essentially my position also. My personal revival occurred in the environment of people who were "technically" charismatic (Calvary Chapel), but who also emphasized sensible biblical study. Though not all of their conclusions seem as sensible to me as they once did—nonetheless, it was among them that I first learned to value a sensible, inductive approach to scripture. Not only have I come to believe in all the gifts of the Spirit, but I personally speak in tongues, and believe in miraculous healings (there are "gifts of healings" mentioned among other gifts in 1 Corinthians 12). I have no reason to doubt that many such healings may be taking place in the orb of the Bethel Church in Redding, and elsewhere.

While I am not arguing for a merely cerebral approach, devoid of mystery or supernatural interventions, I believe that language is governed by rules of grammar that are analyzed and understood by the mental faculties. Thus, I approach the statements of scripture as an attempt of the writers (and, ultimately, of God) to communicate truth to our minds. Once we have grasped the truths, we can decide more responsibly what is the nature of the spiritual and supernatural realities that those words reveal.

My concern about Bill Johnson's approach is that he by-passes the responsible approach to understanding the divine revelation and appeals directly to emotions—with what proves to be a very misleading result, in my opinion.

[askmatt]

This will be off topic from TK's original question, but I want to respond to Steve's thoughts on Bill Johnson and my response really is to Steve.

Steve, I appreciate you. You have a terrific ministry and teaching and I completely respect you. You are a brother! All I would ask that you are a little more careful in your critique of someone like Bill Johnson and I will explain why I ask you to do so, but first I feel I need to give you a little of my background so hopefully you won't think that I'm completely goofy............maybe to a point......but not completely goofy!

I grew up in very fundamental churches. I love Bible teaching and the study of the Word. I am the man I am because of it. I think I was probably in my 20's when I felt a restlessness inside of me, though. I started to wonder why I really never heard much teaching on the Holy Spirit. There was a lot of teaching about God and Jesus, but very little on the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. I wondered if I was missing something. If "we" were missing something. For myself, I saw no where in the Bible where I was told that certain gifts ever went away. My family and I began to visit a non denominational, but charismatic church and continued to remain with this type of church even after we moved to Ohio 15 years ago. There were things that bothered me about our church in Ohio, however, like how we would all be encouraged to speak in tongues, but there would be very little interpretation, plus it was the same woman that always interpreted which raised my eyebrows. Soon we left that church and ended up settling in with what I felt is a very solid Vineyard church in Cleveland, Ohio. I felt this church had a great balance of the teaching of the Word and the gifts of the Spirit. I remember our pastor teaching on tongues and how that it was a wonderful gift, but it had to be used biblically and that he would not allow us to ever become what looked like a circus to a non believer or a visitor. I loved that church. I saw people who had demons cast out of them and I remember a lady being healed of cancer. We ended up moving due to a change in my work location, and were too far away to continue attending that church, but I missed it greatly.

Thanks for reading through that. I said all that to give you an idea of where I am in my walk with the Lord. In the more recent years I began to feel myself challenged again. This time I began to wonder why we aren't outside of the church walls more doing what Jesus did and what the apostles did. I wondered why we weren't out praying for people that were hurting. Why wasn't I out offering to lay hands on the sick and praying for them to be made whole? Why was I even afraid to think of doing such a thing? I read in 1 John that if I abide in Christ that I should also walk like He walked. I took this to mean I should do what He did. It was around this time that I began to hear of Bill Johnson and Bethel and even became acquainted with people who offered teaching and training on some of Bethel type teachings. I loved the idea the Bethel encouraged people to be more like the apostles and I wanted to have that boldness.

Today I am involved in a Bethel church. Now I will admit that there are still some things within the Bethel movement that cause me to just sit back and observe and ponder. I'm not going to go into those things, but just will acknowledge that element. However, since I have read some of Bill Johnson's teachings and sat under the teachings of Bethel leaders, or Bethel type leaders, I have to say that I have a new excitement. I have learned how to go up to someone in a very polite, non threatening way and offer to pray for them and I have to say I see things happening like I never did before. I won't be foolish and try to make believe that everyone I pray for gets healed if it's a physical need. Far from it. I wish it happened more, but I will tell you that I've seen it happen more than at anytime before. One day while in Wilmington, North Carolina, I felt led to walk over to a man along a river walk and let him know that I believed that I was supposed to pray for him. I always ask the person if that is okay with them before I do. He was amazed that I was wishing to do such a thing for him. He didn't have a physical need, but he was kind of lost in life and wandering around, squandering what he did have. To my amazement when I asked him if I could pray for him he got down on his knees and lifted his hands, so there we were, praying arm in arm along a well visited river walk. Another time I went to see a 5 yr. old boy at the Cleveland Clinic who had brain surgery to remove a tumor. The swelling in his brain was not going down and there was great concern over this boys very life. I met his dad and asked if he would allow me to pray for his boy and he said of course. I've learned to pray expectingly and to pray with authority and in when I prayed I was aware that I felt that the Holy Spirit was giving me authority over this boy's body. I spoke wholeness and healing to that body. I told the swelling that it had to go down in Jesus name and for the body to come in line with wholeness. The room was filled with a sudden, incredible and intense feeling of power and peace at the same time. While that little boy didn't rise up in bed, his medical situation turned immediately. I got a call that shortly after I left the room, everything began to turn around. Even when I pray for someone in a store and if they don't experience an immediate difference they are usually very touched that God would send someone to minister to them. After praying for a woman outside of a Walgreen's, she looked at me and said, "My daughter became a Christian and is always talking to me about it. Maybe there is something to it." She thanked me for caring enough to talk and pray with her. It is through the teaching of someone like Bill Johnson and Bethel that I have learned how to do this without being rude or arrogant. Again, I wish I saw immediate results it every time, but very honestly things like happen way more now than they ever did before. I have never heard Bill Johnson, or any of the other 3 Bethel pastors that I know ever say that everyone that they pray for gets healed either, yet they get accused of such things by people who don't really know them.

Bill Johnson gives glory and honor to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone. The Bethel pastors that I have encountered do the same. They love people, have compassion on people and want people to come to Christ. They teach Christ crucified.

Steve, I ask that you are careful in how critical you are of people like Bill. I have seen you do that before. You picked apart Bill's comment about Peter's shadow. I wonder if you read into that something that you didn't need to because of not caring for Bill's teaching? What I thought of when I heard that comment was how someones countenance can change a situation entirely. How many times have you heard of someone where it is said of someone, "He could brighten up a room just by walking into it." Other times I've been in a meeting where the leader has been so negative, or depressing that it brings everyone down. If I am walking around under the shadow of Jesus, people should be able to sense the goodness of Christ in me. I hope that my shadow does release Jesus, His kindness, love, compassion and healing when I walk into a room, because that is Who I am under. How does that not make sense? Is that not the way it should be if I am walking "just as He walked....?" (1 John 2:6)

Again, Steve, I am thankful for you and for the ministry that you have. God has used you and continues to use you greatly. I praise God for you. I just encourage you to sometimes be a little more careful that you don't go to far in your critique of others. Now.....let's go seize the day!!!!!

Prayers and blessings to you and everyone here,
Mark S.

[steve]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for those testimonies. They are truly encouraging, and I believe it is a positive thing for Christians to take the gospel out to the world, and to pray for those who desire to be prayed for. If we all would do that more, I believe, we would see much more of the kind of thing you are describing, and we would make the reality of Christ more visible—not only to the world, but to ourselves.

I have, of course, been hearing about Bethel Church, in Redding, for years. Strangely, I had never heard (or had not remembered) the pastor's name. I did not know that the clip posted by TK was of the pastor of that church. Thus, I was not consciously responding to the Bethel Church's ministry or message in my comments (though I don't know that my comments would have been otherwise had I known). My comments were not a critique of a ministry, but of a clip posted of a sermon. Not knowing anything about the identity or broader ministry of the speaker, I had nothing to critique, other than the contents of his sermon. My reaction to his comments remains unchanged, though I do not, by my reaction to them, intend to evaluate his entire ministry and movement.

I have breakfast once a week with a man who is very impressed with what is going on at Bethel. I have always told him the same thing I say here, namely, that I believe in miraculous healings. I do not believe that God wishes to heal everyone supernaturally, nor do I believe that physical healing is the primary focus of the gospel. I certainly do not agree with the analysis of the topic presented on the video clip—not because I would not be delighted to see more genuine healings done in the name of Jesus, but because I believe that an emphasis on power, rather than on truth, has led many religious people astray into cults and errors. If we misidentify the mission of Jesus, we are less likely to know what it means when we are told to "walk even as He walked."

Anyway, though I am a great admirer of certain others, like Chuck Smith, and the mighty revival that God brought about through him, I have not demurred from critiquing certain thing that he has said, which I find to be unscriptural. I also welcome him or others to critique my statements by the same standard.

I am glad that God is using you and others to bring relief and comfort (and Jesus) to your corner of the world, and I would be very happy to see your tribe increase. I would be concerned, however, if the biblical teaching about such things were to be twisted in the interests of promoting these or other activities.

Blessings!

[askmatt]

Thanks for the reply, Steve. I do appreciate your views. I also am a big fan of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel. Have a good rest of the week and weekend!

[charleswest]

"but because I believe that an emphasis on power, rather than on truth, has led many religious people astray into cults and errors. If we misidentify the mission of Jesus, we are less likely to know what it means when we are told to "walk even as He walked."

Agreed...