John 14 and Heaven

[steve7150]

Even if it is a reference to the second coming, it does not mention anything about Jesus taking His disciples away to another place. It refers to Him coming to where they are (earth) and gathering them to Himself (since He would then be on earth, this gathering would apparently also be on earth). There is no hint here of taking the church to heaven. Though Jesus is there now, heaven is not His permanent base of operations (Acts 3:21/ Rom.4:13), nor will it be ours (1 Thess.4:14/ Matt.5:5/ Rev.5:10).
steve





When i first heard John 14 my initial understanding was that it reconciled with Paul's statements about departing and being with Christ at the moment of Paul's death. It seems to me this simple explanation fits everything without any difficulties except for the reference to "my Father's house" which isn't used to describe heaven anywhere else. However that does'nt mean that it does'nt mean heaven in this case as the imagery would be understandable to Jesus listeners at some point.
I don't really see any reason to imagine any reference to the second coming in his words here plus Jesus said he would receive us yet if he meant the Holy Spirit would come and occupy our hearts, it would be us receiving him rather then him receiving us.

[Suzana]

Joh 14:2-3 KJV
(2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When i first heard John 14 my initial understanding was that it reconciled with Paul's statements about departing and being with Christ at the moment of Paul's death. It seems to me this simple explanation fits...

To me it seems an awkward way of expressing this idea - if that is the meaning, I think it would be more natural to say "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will receive you unto myself;" or "I will be there to receive you unto myself", (leaving out "I will come again").

[steve7150]

Joh 14:2-3 KJV
(2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

steve7150 wrote:
When i first heard John 14 my initial understanding was that it reconciled with Paul's statements about departing and being with Christ at the moment of Paul's death. It seems to me this simple explanation fits...

To me it seems an akward way of expressing this idea - if that is the meaning, I think it would be more natural to say "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will receive you unto myself;" or "I will be there to receive you unto myself", (leaving out "I will come again").









That's a good point Suzanna but it could mean he comes again to retrieve our souls , which in effect is him receiving us that our souls may be where he is.
I may be wrong but i think the greek word "receive" is the same word as "take possession" , so if that is true Jesus may come and take possession of the believers soul/spirit.
Now if Paidion is around this might draw him out to challenge this interpretation.

[darinhouston]

Does anyone have a resource to point to any significant early commentaries or church fathers who held this view? Virtually every commentary I've reviewed (and all the modern folks but for NT Wright it seems) seem to hold the "heavenly homes" view (or in the case of Augustine and some others an odd sort of "degrees of glory" sort of interpretation).

[steve]

Really? Does N.T. Wright take the same view I do? I wasn't aware of it, though it is encouraging, since I agree with him on so many other issues. I can't tell you of any ancient commentators who took this view. At least I have not found it in any commentaries at all.

[darinhouston]

I now can't find what I read about Wright today... it was in another article and mentioned his views in passing -- if anyone has a reference to any of his writing or audio on John 14, I'd appreciate it.

[steve]

I looked up Wright's comments on John 14 in a little book called "John for Everyman:part two"—which is not a scholarly treatment, but written for a popular audience. What he writes about the "my Father's house" statement is not very detailed. He seems to be seeing the Father's house as the spiritual temple—"a new city, a new world, a new 'house' (the church?)," but in an eschatological sense—that is, a reference to the church in the New Earth at the end of this age. I may be reading him wrongly. Here is the only paragraph in which he discusses this verse:

That's the image Jesus is using. He is going away, and the disciples are naturally anxious about where he's going and whether they will be able to follow him. So he speaks of 'his father's house'. The only other time he's used the expression it referred to the Temple (2.16). The point about the Temple, within the life of the people of Israel, was that it was the place where heaven and earth met. Now Jesus hints at a new city, a new world, a new 'house'. Heaven and earth will meet again when God renews the whole world. At that time there will be room for everyone.

[mattrose]

Wright doesn't say much at all about the beginning of John 14 in 'Surprised by Hope' which is all about life after death and resurrection. In his larger volume on resurrection 'Resurrection and the Son of God,' he somewhat expands on what Steve got from 'John for everyone'

This, I believe, is the best way to understand the passage about the 'dwelling-places' prepared for the disciples... Other references to 'my father's house' clearly refer to the Temple, and it is likely that Jesus is using the image of the many apartments in the large Temple complex as a picture of the many 'rooms' which will be provided in the heavenly world for which the Temple is both the earthly counterpart and the point of interesection. The word here for 'dwelling place' is mone, which is cognate with the word meno, 'abide', a frequent and powerful Johannine word which encapsulates the notion of the believer making his or her place of abode in or with Jesus. The normal meaning of mone, though, is of the temporary resting-place, or way-station, where a traveller would be refreshed during a journey. Some commentators, trying to bring out that meaning, have suggested that the word here denotes a sense of progress, not merely repose, in the life to come, but without seeing that the natural parallels in Jewish apocalyptic writing are those passages which speak of the chambers in which the souls are kept against the day of eventual resurrection. The 'dwelling-places' of this passage are thus best understood as safe places where those who have died may lodge and rest, like pilgrims in the Temple, not so much in the course of an onward pilgrimage within the life of a disembodied 'heaven', but while awaiting the resurrection which is still to come.

[darinhouston]

According to a man on the NT Wright mailing list group, Richard Bauckham holds to a similar view of John 14.

http://richardbauckham.co.uk/

[steve]

A view similar to mine, or similar to N.T. Wright's?