The Last 12 verses of Mark

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4978
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by Paidion » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:25 pm

Homer, thank you for persisting with me!
I don't know how I could have thought that a new book always started on a new page.

I just finished re-examining the first part of Vaticanus.
Going from Mathew to Mark, the copyist ends Matthew in the second column and begins Mark in the third column of the same page.
Going from Mark to Luke, the copyist ends Mark in column 2, leaves column 3 blank, and begins Luke on column 1 of the next page.
Going from Luke to John, the copyist ends Luke in the second column and begins John in the third column of the same page.
Going from John to Acts, the copyist ends John in a few lines at the top of the first column, and begins Acts in the second column of the same page.

So again, I regret the misinformation that I presented. Thus it does appear that at the end of Mark, the copyist left the third column blank for a reason.
I am still puzzled as to why I had thought the copyist always began a new book on a new page. The only excuse I have is that my 82-year-old brain does not always function properly.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2659
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:36 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
I am still puzzled as to why I had thought the copyist always began a new book on a new page. The only excuse I have is that my 82-year-old brain does not always function properly.
I'm only two years behind you and I know the feeling well; have experienced it since at least since my 50s. I think you are doing really well.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4978
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:10 pm

Thank you for your kind remark, Homer.
I have another idea about the blank column which I hope to share later.

Meanwhile you might want to check out the following from the Bible Researcher, especially the words of the great Greek scholar, Bruce Metzger.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4978
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:01 pm

Greetings Homer, in the precious name of Jesus!

I am sure that the ending of Mark (verses 9 to 20) would not fit into a single column. However, that proves nothing since it is not a great deal larger, and if the copyist left the column blank for the reason John Burgon thinks he did, then the copyist may have thought it would fit.

At the end of Matthew, the copyist has only 9 lines filled with text, then he adds the two words "according to Matthew" (two words in Greek)—the first word above the other. And above and below the two words he placed funny little designs all of which took about 10 lines. Then the rest of column 2 was blank. Then he started Mark in column 3. Initially I thought he liked to leave those blank parts at the end of a book before starting the next book. So because the last of Mark, together with the words "according to Mark" took the whole column, he left the third column blank.

But my theory was blown out of the water when I considered Luke to John. There was exactly the same situation at the end of Luke. The ending and the space for "according to Luke" takes us right to the bottom of the second column. Yet he started column 3 with the beginning of John's gospel, rather than leaving it blank as in the ending of Mark.

Yet, I am still not convinced of John Burgon's theory. I doubt that the copyist was even aware of verses 9 to 20. I think someone added those verses to the text much later.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2659
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by Homer » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:29 pm

Hi Paidion,

Thanks for the link at bible-researcher.com. I enjoyed the info. and noticed that Scrivener seemed to think highly of John Burgon. I had also noticed, as Scrivener indicated, that Burgon seemed to be enjoying himself while he, IMO, demolished the arguments of the critics. He always showed respect though for their abilities, a real gentleman.

One thing I did notice was that Metzger claimed Mark's last twelve verses were not in the style Mark employed in the rest of the Gospel. As Burgon pointed out, the critics who base part of their claims on style ("sententious and abrupt") apparently never noticed the twelve verses, Chapter 1:9-20 where Mark wrote of four subjects: Jesus' baptism, Jesus' temptation, Jesus' preaching in Galilee, and Jesus calling of four of the apostles, written in a similar style. These four events must have covered, according to Burgon, a period of around six months. Then in the first twenty verses of chapter five Mark tells the story of Jesus' healing of the demoniac; the whole story covered an event that may have taken an hour's time. Are the critics inconsistent, or just never noticed?

Tischendorf, the "discoverer" of codex Siniaticus (aleph) perhaps thought too much of the manuscript which the monks had consigned to the dump. Many years ago I heard a lecturer speak of what he called "the ugly baby syndrome". What he was referring to was the fact that if a young couple has an ugly baby, you can not tell them that, they will not hear of it. Perhaps this syndrome applies to some of the critic's "discoveries", their babies.

steve7150
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:44 am

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by steve7150 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:23 pm

Yet, I am still not convinced of John Burgon's theory. I doubt that the copyist was even aware of verses 9 to 20. I think someone added those verses to the text much later.







So how do you account for 4 or so church fathers quoting parts of Mark 9 -20 in letters around 150 or so years before 300 AD?

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4978
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:34 pm

So how do you account for 4 or so church fathers quoting parts of Mark 9 -20 in letters around 150 or so years before 300 AD?
Which fathers quoted parts of Mark 16: 9-20, and specifically what were the quotes?

Are you sure they were quoting from Mark 16: 9-20? How do you know that it was not the other way around? That the author of Mark 16:9-20 quoted those parts that are found elsewhere?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

StevenD
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:25 am

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by StevenD » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:39 am

A couple early writings that cite segments of Mark 16:9-20 are Tatian's Diatessaron and Irenaeus' Against Heresies.

The Diatessaron was probably composed during the mid to late second century. A comparison of sections 53.25ff. and 55.3ff. with Mark 16:9-20 suggests that Tatian was familiar with a considerable chunk of the same material in dispute. Since Tatian's interest was to compile a harmony of the Gospels, it is difficult for me to imagine how/why he chose to include these records if they weren't already circulating as part of Mark's Gospel. (A fair amount of The Diatessaron appears to cite segments of Mark 16:9-20 in nearly word perfect form.)
See: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... saron.html

Irenaeus' Against Heresies was likely a product of the late second century. Book 3, chap. 10.5 contains a nearly word for word citation from Mark 16:19:
"Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: 'So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God;"
See: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... book3.html

steve7150
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:44 am

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:03 am

A couple early writings that cite segments of Mark 16:9-20 are Tatian's Diatessaron and Irenaeus' Against Heresies.








Yes Tatian was around 170AD and also there was Tertullian around 215AD & Hippolitus around 235AD & he wrote twice. So apparently there were earlier manuscripts including this section.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4978
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Last 12 verses of Mark

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:52 pm

Yes, even before your recent post, I found the quote for myself from Irenaeus.

But could it not be that the last 12 verses of Mark, were not written by Mark himself, but were added to his gospel at a very early time?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

Post Reply

Return to “The Gospels”