Type of Death in Gospel of John

[mikew]

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. (ASV)

I just noticed a parallel association of an idea in this verse. The idea is that judgment is paralleled with death. Both occur together. What the verse then is saying is that the believer has then avoided judgment which also means that the believer has bypassed death. Now of course this doesn't mean that believers avoid physical death but it means that the believer has bypassed actual death, which then can only mean the believer must actually avoid perishing (annihilation).

Another point of logic is that the eternal life then starts before the moment of death so that the believer always remains in eternal life both before and after the physical death. Otherwise, how could a believer not come into death,in other words, the judgment that ends in death?

This matches with John 11:26
Joh 11:26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

The death in John 11:26 would refer to perishing, not simply physical death. That is to say that Christians will face physical death, but they don't encounter the true death. So there is a true death and a mere physical death.

Here's the only options I see about the meaning of death:
1) physical death
2) perishing in connection with physical death --which then doesn't happen to believers
3) death as a period of judgment -- such that believers avoid that period of judgment.
4) spiritual deadness
5) a death sentence (would this concept be compatible with the Greek text?)

So option 1 exists and then a second option as either 2 or 3. Hence we see two types of death described. Now if 3 were the proper meaning, there then might have to be a third meaning of death, unless the period of judgment is forever. It seems that this concept of a judgmental period could fit with the implied first death of Rev 20 to be followed by a second death, which then would be perishing of that soul.

Now for this fourth death may be compatible with John 5:24 in saying that a believer has passed out of(or gotten away from) spiritual deadness.

Its too late tonight to come to conclusions, but it seemed ok to leave some of this analysis here for discussion. I didn't quite expect this topic to go into a study on the types of death. So what are the correct meanings of death here?

[mikew]

The John 5:24 touches upon the concept of resurrection along with the idea of being born again as well.

The exchange of death for eternal life represents a concept of resurrection, having the basic elements of both the dead state followed by the living state. It would seem that part of the significance of mentioning "eternal life" would have to do with the defeat of death in this transformation process -- once having been given life from death, what power does death have?

Notice also that someone who has come to the point of faith then was described here as been dead, spoken in the past tense, or having at least replaced the death sentence with eternal life. (Though any doctrine of resurrection would seem applicable essentially after the Day of Pentecost, when the message of Christ spread quite faster, having been dormant until that moment.) I see in John 5:24 a strong statement of the idea of eternal life starting at the time one is born again, upon coming to faith. (And then the possibilities of falling away from the faith would be seen more as a 1st century purging of those who just got caught up in the excitement of the message but were not truly of faith -- See Matt 13, parable of the Sower.)

And John 5:24 seems to speak against the idea that eternal life is only received after the Resurrection of the Last Day such that the Last Day resurrection would be giving bodies again to those who previously obtained eternal life. Nor does there appear to be room here for those who say we are resurrected right after death, since the verse talks about passing-by or skipping death, as connected with judgment.

Are there any recommended studies on this verse and surrounding verses?

[Douglas]

Mike,

Fun topic to talk about. So if John 5:24 talks about the "first resurrection" or when we are born again (of which I would agree) , when do you put the 2nd resurrection that would by implied in Rev 20?

I would love to hear your thoughts on the 1st and 2nd death and resurrection that are discussed in Rev 20

Douglas

[mikew]

Douglas,
Glad you found this topic.

I don't really think of John 5:24 as the "first resurrection" of Rev 20,though there is a possibility that no resurrection occurred to believers until AD70 (with the first resurrection of AD70). For believers today, the born again experience is more readily seen as an immediate event, as a sort of resurrection occurring (distinct from the first resurrection of Rev 20).

The other resurrection of Rev 20 was only of "the dead" not of those alive in Christ. Remember in John 5:24 the believers skipped past death into eternal life. And I think even that the resurrection of judgment of Rev 20 could even be invisible to us and hence could have happened by now -- that the only reason to mention this was to explain what happened to the wicked of the first century. So, in such viewpoint, Rev 20 does not include all people who die, only one small group who died.
I don't quite understand the reason to raise them to "life" again, but the explanation of Rev 20 appears to help clarify the fulfillment of Daniel 12:2.

[mkprr]

Mike,


I have maybe a more simple way of looking at this but it might sound wierd. I always have pictured that there are two kinds of death that we will go through. One is mortal death, our body stops living and turns back to dust. Even believing Christians will go through this but it is not permanent because of the atonement of Christ. The second is spiritual death or the seperation of us from God. Both of these deaths were brought about by the fall of Adam and both are overcome by Christ. When the earth was created Adam walked and talked with God, after the fall this privelege was taken from him. If this second death is what Christ is speaking of this scripture makes perfect sense.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

From this passage it seems like he is speaking of a blessing we recieve immediately once we believe. He says have "passed out of death into life" not that we will pass out of death into life someday after we die and rise again. Once we believe, our relationship with God, that relationship that was lost with the fall of Adam, is given back to us (at least in part, this relationship will be perfected eventually) and we become alive in Christ. We then can live our life with God. Our physical bodies may rott in the earth yet we will live because we are one with Christ as he is one with the Father.

By the way, is there a spell check on this thing?

[selah]

mkprr wrote:

By the way, is there a spell check on this thing?

Mike, I'm fairly new to this forum and have wondered the same thing, but not taken the time to ask. Thanks for asking.