Prayers to the Saints/Mary

[darinhouston]

Tom, I have not had a Roman Catholic explain how they address this point and would appreciate your thoughts.

Scripture clearly teaches that the dead have crossed a great divide. It also clearly teaches that we are NOT to seek to communicate with them. Even if we "could" communicate with them, wouldn't it be considered divination to try and address them?

Even Christ Himself when teaching us to pray did not pray to or through any of the Old Testament Saints to reach the Father. Did He or anyone else in the bible beyond Saul (divining Samuel) communicate with the departed souls of Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? Seth? or any previous saint? Instead, our Lord taught us to pray directly to the Father.

On what basis is prayer to Mary or the saints not considered akin to divination?

[RND]

On what basis is prayer to Mary or the saints not considered akin to divination?

I can answer this and I'm not even Roman Catholic! A knowledgeable Catholic will tell you praying to Mary or the saints not akin to divination simply because they are not looking for "two-way" communication. Simple as that. Yet isn't that the express purpose of prayers to God?

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

"Prayer is the opening of the heart to God as to a friend. Not that it is necessary in order to make known to God what we are, but in order to enable us to receive Him. Prayer does not bring God down to us, but brings us up to Him." - Ellen G. White, Steps to Christ, Page 93

"Unceasing prayer is the unbroken union of the soul with God, so that life from God flows into our life; and from our life, purity and holiness flow back to God." - Ellen G. White, Steps to Christ, Page 96

[darinhouston]

On what basis is prayer to Mary or the saints not considered akin to divination?

I can answer this and I'm not even Roman Catholic! A knowledgeable Catholic will tell you praying to Mary or the saints not akin to divination simply because they are not looking for "two-way" communication. Simple as that. Yet isn't that the express purpose of prayers to God?

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

"Prayer is the opening of the heart to God as to a friend. Not that it is necessary in order to make known to God what we are, but in order to enable us to receive Him. Prayer does not bring God down to us, but brings us up to Him." - Ellen G. White, Steps to Christ, Page 93

"Unceasing prayer is the unbroken union of the soul with God, so that life from God flows into our life; and from our life, purity and holiness flow back to God." - Ellen G. White, Steps to Christ, Page 96

Yes -- I guess that raises the second question -- if you're not "conjuring" them so to speak to engage in two-way communication with them, how is it that they can hear everyone's prayers? Do they share in God's omnipresence?

[RND]

Yes -- I guess that raises the second question -- if you're not "conjuring" them so to speak to engage in two-way communication with them, how is it that they can hear everyone's prayers? Do they share in God's omnipresence?

Let's continue to take this as far as we can until there are some reasonable answers.

What is done with the prayers that Mary and the dead saints hear? Do they write them down and give them to God? Why would that be even necessary if God hears our prayers first? Is God wrapped up in other commitments and thus too busy for us?

[Paidion]

In Protestantism, some believe that we cannot approach the Father directly, but must come through Jesus Christ. The Father is too severe to be approached directly. Jesus prays for us. He is the mediator between God and man (I Timothy 2:5).

Catholics take this a step further. Jesus Himself is too severe, and so we have to approach Him through a mediator. That mediator is Mary. She, who is gentle and womanly can approach Jesus on our behalf.

Jesus Himself, seemed to indicate that the time is coming when it will no longer be necessary to make requests of the Father in His name, to approach the Father only through Him. Rather He suggested that the Father could then be approached directly.

I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father. In that day you will ask in my name; and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father. John 16:25-27

[kaufmannphillips]

darinhouston wrote:

Yes -- I guess that raises the second question -- if you're not "conjuring" them so to speak to engage in two-way communication with them, how is it that they can hear everyone's prayers? Do they share in God's omnipresence?

From a Catholic site:

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

[RND]

A mortal, unglorified person....

Exactly. Mary was mortal and unglorified. Nothing in scripture mentions her ascension into the heavenly courtyard. She is asleep (i.e. dead) in the grave awaiting her change.

[darinhouston]

I've of course considered that space/time and dimensionality of our present physical universe would be their best "wild card" to escape this problem, but that only seems to cure the "space/time" problem -- it doesn't explain how they can hear silent prayers or even "hear" them in the first place. The only way this works is to ascribe to them omni-presence from an earthly perspective. If so, then how do they differ in one of God's particular attributes (though I confess the Bible doesn't go so far as prove any of the omni-s expressly).

[kaufmannphillips]

I suppose they would say that G-d provides for the mechanics in his ability, as the posting indicates.

[anochria]

If we have direct access to the Father because of Christ, as was said rightly by Paidion, why do we as Christians intercede on each other's behalf in prayer, or ask for others to pray for us?

And if we are to intercede on one other's behalf and ask for others to pray for us, as Scripture indicates, then wouldn't it be logical that those who are seated with Christ, reigning with him (ie, the departed saints) would be worthy candidates to pray to the Father on our behalf?

I'm veiling my personal beliefs on this for a moment in hopes of reigniting this discussion, which I think is missing a few peices Thoughts on these questions?