well, it SEEMS like he gave satan the green light because it seems like he gave him permission to go after Job.
But- i think you are right that when adam sinned, the authority that was given to him over the earth defaulted to satan. at least that is my understanding.
TK
Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
I'm rather rusty on this topic but . . .
The Book of Job seems to just show the endurance of faith in God through the example of Job's life. Job had encountered troubles and then his friends offered all sorts of theories -- like we would encounter today -- some being right and most wrong. Their theories tended to judge Job, just like Christians will do today to someone encountering problems.
Even Job seemed to stumble upon the ideas as well but in the end God brought blessing to Job. So it really did not matter that Job had sort of a crisis of faith since, in the end, God is faithful in His love toward us.
I hope this explanation makes sense without me having to reread Job and quote verses.
The Book of Job seems to just show the endurance of faith in God through the example of Job's life. Job had encountered troubles and then his friends offered all sorts of theories -- like we would encounter today -- some being right and most wrong. Their theories tended to judge Job, just like Christians will do today to someone encountering problems.
Even Job seemed to stumble upon the ideas as well but in the end God brought blessing to Job. So it really did not matter that Job had sort of a crisis of faith since, in the end, God is faithful in His love toward us.
I hope this explanation makes sense without me having to reread Job and quote verses.
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Also visit parablesofthemysteries.com
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
well, it SEEMS like he gave satan the green light because it seems like he gave him permission to go after Job.
But- i think you are right that when adam sinned, the authority that was given to him over the earth defaulted to satan. at least that is my understanding.
Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" in John, and Paul called him "the god of this age" but in the OT folks had no ability to discern or fight Satan who is a spirit being. So since folks had no ability to fight Satan , i think God often took the rap for what Satan did and called this "curses".
So either the portrayl of God in the book of Job is accurate or the portrayl of God by Jesus is correct, and Job is an allegory using idioms. For Satan to be in God's presence and appear to ask for permission has got to be an idiom meaning he already had that authority and God would'nt stop him because Adam legally gave it up to Satan. Jesus explicitly confirmed Satan as "ruler of this world". Rulers already have authority.
But- i think you are right that when adam sinned, the authority that was given to him over the earth defaulted to satan. at least that is my understanding.
Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" in John, and Paul called him "the god of this age" but in the OT folks had no ability to discern or fight Satan who is a spirit being. So since folks had no ability to fight Satan , i think God often took the rap for what Satan did and called this "curses".
So either the portrayl of God in the book of Job is accurate or the portrayl of God by Jesus is correct, and Job is an allegory using idioms. For Satan to be in God's presence and appear to ask for permission has got to be an idiom meaning he already had that authority and God would'nt stop him because Adam legally gave it up to Satan. Jesus explicitly confirmed Satan as "ruler of this world". Rulers already have authority.
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
Hi Mike-
your explanation of the book, in general, does make sense. What I struggle with, as i stated earlier is the "set up" of the story and how God is portrayed.
For example, steve7150 was making the point that maybe God really didnt have much to do with Job's misfortune, other than allowing satan to act.
However, this morning I was reading again this passage:
Note the underlined words. This is an example of what troubles me about the book.
TK
your explanation of the book, in general, does make sense. What I struggle with, as i stated earlier is the "set up" of the story and how God is portrayed.
For example, steve7150 was making the point that maybe God really didnt have much to do with Job's misfortune, other than allowing satan to act.
However, this morning I was reading again this passage:
And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” Job 2:3 NKJV.
Note the underlined words. This is an example of what troubles me about the book.
TK
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
steve7150 wrote:
TK
if this is correct, then much of my difficulty of the book disappears. Perhaps God wasn't involved at all in what happened to Job, and it was merely a poetic device as you suggested.For Satan to be in God's presence and appear to ask for permission has got to be an idiom meaning he already had that authority and God would'nt stop him because Adam legally gave it up to Satan. Jesus explicitly confirmed Satan as "ruler of this world". Rulers already have authority.
TK
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
Don't have much time now, hope to have more to say later, but:
Job 2:3 (New King James Version)
3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
Job attributed his loss to God. "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away". And God is ultimately responsible. Satan was only able to afflict Job because it was in God's will that he do so to test Job for Job's benefit. As with Joseph, God meant it for good. God is sovereign; Satan has no power to harm anyone unless God allows it. There is much to learn from the book, such as being good (very good in Job's case) does not save us from terrible things.
Job's predicament is like ours in at least one way: there is no answer in this life from our human perspective as to why bad things happen to good people. I have seen this in my relatives. But God has His reasons. In Job's case, we are let in on the reason; Job never did learn why, at least not in this life.
And the big question for us is as it was for Job: will we be faithful when things go bad - very bad? Or put another way, do we "fear God for nothing"?
Job 2:3 (New King James Version)
3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
Job attributed his loss to God. "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away". And God is ultimately responsible. Satan was only able to afflict Job because it was in God's will that he do so to test Job for Job's benefit. As with Joseph, God meant it for good. God is sovereign; Satan has no power to harm anyone unless God allows it. There is much to learn from the book, such as being good (very good in Job's case) does not save us from terrible things.
Job's predicament is like ours in at least one way: there is no answer in this life from our human perspective as to why bad things happen to good people. I have seen this in my relatives. But God has His reasons. In Job's case, we are let in on the reason; Job never did learn why, at least not in this life.
And the big question for us is as it was for Job: will we be faithful when things go bad - very bad? Or put another way, do we "fear God for nothing"?
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
God is sovereign; Satan has no power to harm
IMHO this is not a matter of God's sovereignty , this is also not a matter of Satan's power per se, it's a matter of whether Satan has the power to kill and destroy and a matter of because of Adam's sin , did Satan through deception take the dominion of this world from mankind. I think he did as Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" , Paul called Satan "the god of this age" and in Hebrews it says Satan has the power of death. IMO God allows Satan this dominion that he took from Adam , because of God's own integrity and justice and righteousness. No one forced Adam to hand over dominion to Satan, he willingly did it and apparently he had the right to do it according to God.
In the NT God is called "Love" and his attributes are justice,mercy and faithfulness yet in Job if you read it literally it seems to me it contradicts what the NT says about God therefore i don't take Job literally as something revealing God's character.
IMHO this is not a matter of God's sovereignty , this is also not a matter of Satan's power per se, it's a matter of whether Satan has the power to kill and destroy and a matter of because of Adam's sin , did Satan through deception take the dominion of this world from mankind. I think he did as Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" , Paul called Satan "the god of this age" and in Hebrews it says Satan has the power of death. IMO God allows Satan this dominion that he took from Adam , because of God's own integrity and justice and righteousness. No one forced Adam to hand over dominion to Satan, he willingly did it and apparently he had the right to do it according to God.
In the NT God is called "Love" and his attributes are justice,mercy and faithfulness yet in Job if you read it literally it seems to me it contradicts what the NT says about God therefore i don't take Job literally as something revealing God's character.
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
Satan was only able to afflict Job because it was in God's will that he do so to test Job for Job's benefit
I know the way Job sounds literally but in 1st John 3.8 it says that the devil was a sinner from the beginning besides being a liar and murderer. If Satan was simply doing God's will he would'nt be sinning, if Satan was not doing God's will he would be sinning. Satan could only be a sinner from the beginning if he chose to deceive, kill and destroy outside of God's will. If this is the case then the reason God allowed it was not a matter of God's sovereignty but his integrity.
I know the way Job sounds literally but in 1st John 3.8 it says that the devil was a sinner from the beginning besides being a liar and murderer. If Satan was simply doing God's will he would'nt be sinning, if Satan was not doing God's will he would be sinning. Satan could only be a sinner from the beginning if he chose to deceive, kill and destroy outside of God's will. If this is the case then the reason God allowed it was not a matter of God's sovereignty but his integrity.
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
Hi Steve7150,
Consider Isaiah 10, especially the underlined parts, where God, in His anger at Israel, uses Assyria to inflict severe punishment on His people, then turns His wrath on Assyria for their sin in doing so. Their intent against Israel was evil, God used their evil purpose to carry out His will in the matter:
Isaiah 10 (New International Version)
1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,
2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
and robbing the fatherless.
3 What will you do on the day of reckoning,
when disaster comes from afar?
To whom will you run for help?
Where will you leave your riches?
4 Nothing will remain but to cringe among the captives
or fall among the slain.
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.
5 "Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations.
8 'Are not my commanders all kings?' he says.
9 'Has not Calno fared like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad,
and Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria-
11 shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?' "
12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. 13 For he says:
" 'By the strength of my hand I have done this,
and by my wisdom, because I have understanding.
I removed the boundaries of nations,
I plundered their treasures;
like a mighty one I subdued their kings.
14 As one reaches into a nest,
so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations;
as men gather abandoned eggs,
so I gathered all the countries;
not one flapped a wing,
or opened its mouth to chirp.' "
15 Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it,
or the saw boast against him who uses it?
As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up,
or a club brandish him who is not wood!
16 Therefore, the Lord, the LORD Almighty,
will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors;
under his pomp a fire will be kindled
like a blazing flame.
17 The Light of Israel will become a fire,
their Holy One a flame;
in a single day it will burn and consume
his thorns and his briers.
18 The splendor of his forests and fertile fields
it will completely destroy,
as when a sick man wastes away.
19 And the remaining trees of his forests will be so few
that a child could write them down.
God bless, Homer
Consider Isaiah 10, especially the underlined parts, where God, in His anger at Israel, uses Assyria to inflict severe punishment on His people, then turns His wrath on Assyria for their sin in doing so. Their intent against Israel was evil, God used their evil purpose to carry out His will in the matter:
Isaiah 10 (New International Version)
1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,
2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
and robbing the fatherless.
3 What will you do on the day of reckoning,
when disaster comes from afar?
To whom will you run for help?
Where will you leave your riches?
4 Nothing will remain but to cringe among the captives
or fall among the slain.
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.
5 "Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations.
8 'Are not my commanders all kings?' he says.
9 'Has not Calno fared like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad,
and Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria-
11 shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?' "
12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. 13 For he says:
" 'By the strength of my hand I have done this,
and by my wisdom, because I have understanding.
I removed the boundaries of nations,
I plundered their treasures;
like a mighty one I subdued their kings.
14 As one reaches into a nest,
so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations;
as men gather abandoned eggs,
so I gathered all the countries;
not one flapped a wing,
or opened its mouth to chirp.' "
15 Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it,
or the saw boast against him who uses it?
As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up,
or a club brandish him who is not wood!
16 Therefore, the Lord, the LORD Almighty,
will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors;
under his pomp a fire will be kindled
like a blazing flame.
17 The Light of Israel will become a fire,
their Holy One a flame;
in a single day it will burn and consume
his thorns and his briers.
18 The splendor of his forests and fertile fields
it will completely destroy,
as when a sick man wastes away.
19 And the remaining trees of his forests will be so few
that a child could write them down.
God bless, Homer
Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?
I have been too busy to participate here, but I agree totally with Homer.
First, Job is a true story, which is why he is listed along with other historical characters (Noah and Daniel) in Ezekiel 14:14, 20. This is also the only reason that God's actions toward Job, as referred to in James, can be set forth to us as an encouragement. If it is fiction, then it really does not present a case history of God's dealings, as James claims it does.
Second, as Homer pointed out, there is no conflict between God's goodness and sovereignty, on the one hand, and His use of the devil as an instrument for testing men, on the other. The Bible everywhere says that God tests men's hearts in this way, and both Joseph ("God meant it for good") and Jesus ("The cup that my Father has given me...") saw the hand of God in the terrible troubles with which Satan afflicted them. We are told plainly that such trials are an occasion for our rejoicing, because of the good that God intends to bring through them (Rom.5:3/Jas.1:2-3/1 Pet.1:6-7). Job also agreed with this (Job 23:10).
The Word of Faith theology always has had troubles with the Book of Job, because their view is almost precisely that of Job's friends, which the book is written to refute. The book is a true story, as Ezekiel and James tell us, but even if it were a parable, its lesson is clearly that Satan was completely unable to penetrate the hedge that God had kept around Job, until God gave him permission to do so. Job attributed his trials to God. Word of Faith teachers say Job was wrong, but the book itself plainly says that Job spoke correctly about God (1:21-22; 2:10; 42:7)—and the narrative in the first two chapters vindicates his opinion. The Word of Faith teachers would be better off if they would just tear the book out of the Bible (along with Ezekiel and James), rather than contradicting its statements outright.
First, Job is a true story, which is why he is listed along with other historical characters (Noah and Daniel) in Ezekiel 14:14, 20. This is also the only reason that God's actions toward Job, as referred to in James, can be set forth to us as an encouragement. If it is fiction, then it really does not present a case history of God's dealings, as James claims it does.
Second, as Homer pointed out, there is no conflict between God's goodness and sovereignty, on the one hand, and His use of the devil as an instrument for testing men, on the other. The Bible everywhere says that God tests men's hearts in this way, and both Joseph ("God meant it for good") and Jesus ("The cup that my Father has given me...") saw the hand of God in the terrible troubles with which Satan afflicted them. We are told plainly that such trials are an occasion for our rejoicing, because of the good that God intends to bring through them (Rom.5:3/Jas.1:2-3/1 Pet.1:6-7). Job also agreed with this (Job 23:10).
The Word of Faith theology always has had troubles with the Book of Job, because their view is almost precisely that of Job's friends, which the book is written to refute. The book is a true story, as Ezekiel and James tell us, but even if it were a parable, its lesson is clearly that Satan was completely unable to penetrate the hedge that God had kept around Job, until God gave him permission to do so. Job attributed his trials to God. Word of Faith teachers say Job was wrong, but the book itself plainly says that Job spoke correctly about God (1:21-22; 2:10; 42:7)—and the narrative in the first two chapters vindicates his opinion. The Word of Faith teachers would be better off if they would just tear the book out of the Bible (along with Ezekiel and James), rather than contradicting its statements outright.