Vicar of Christ?

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anochria
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Vicar of Christ?

Post by anochria » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:04 pm

I was listening to Steve's Some Assembly Required audio series and he made the comment that "vicar of Christ" (aka the Pope) actually means "instead of Christ", similar to the word "anti-christ".

I think this is a bit unfair. To a Catholic, wouldn't the word "vicar" rather mean "in the place of Christ" or "the person through whom Christ appears vicariously"?

The problem isn't that a man or woman might be a vicar of Christ. In fact, Jesus says we will be his vicars in that we are His body and that Jesus appears to other vicariously through us.

Isn't the real problem with the Catholic notion of the Vicar of Christ the exclusivity of the Pope's claim to be the sole vicar of Christ, not really the term "vicar"?
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AaronBDisney
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by AaronBDisney » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:11 pm

I haven't heard Steve's lesson on this, so I may be speaking out of ignorance of where either of you are coming from. But it seems to me that we are representitives of Christ, not in an "instead of" kind of way - but as an extention of Him. We are the Body of Christ. We don't operate in His stead, but in His body. He is the head and we are the body.

I don't know what the exact claim of the Pope is, but if he claims to be operating in the stead or absence of Christ, he has a misconception of the operation of the body of Christ. Of course, Jesus isn't bodily here, but He's still the head of His own body and He still calls the shots....not the Pope.

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anochria
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by anochria » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:36 pm

Agreed. I just don't think that most Catholics, even the current Pope, would disagree with that, or even use the word "instead".
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roblaine
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by roblaine » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:14 pm

Hi Josh,
I think you may be splitting hairs. If, as the Catholics believe, the Pope does stand in place of Christ, is it not fair to say that the Pope has supplanted Christ's authority and leadership over the church? It is not as if Catholics simply believe that Jesus is acting through the Pope, rather they actually believe that he (the Pope) is God on earth, or at a minimum carries the authority of God on earth. Those who believe the Catholic church's teachings on the subject would naturally look to the Pope for their spiritual guidence, rather than Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Consider the following quotes.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".



"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God. and the vicar of God."
Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary


"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power."
Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.


I could go on and on. Catholic writings are replete with such statements. Whether these statements reflect the understanding of the majority of Catholics today, I cannot say. However from a historical perspective I think Steve's statement is not only fair, but also accurate.

Robin
It matters little where a man may be at this moment; the point is whether he is growing.
-George MacDonald

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:31 pm

anochria wrote:
I was listening to Steve's Some Assembly Required audio series and he made the comment that "vicar of Christ" (aka the Pope) actually means "instead of Christ", similar to the word "anti-christ".

I think this is a bit unfair. To a Catholic, wouldn't the word "vicar" rather mean "in the place of Christ" or "the person through whom Christ appears vicariously"?

The problem isn't that a man or woman might be a vicar of Christ. In fact, Jesus says we will be his vicars in that we are His body and that Jesus appears to other vicariously through us.

Isn't the real problem with the Catholic notion of the Vicar of Christ the exclusivity of the Pope's claim to be the sole vicar of Christ, not really the term "vicar"?
I have not heard the audio you refer to, but to compare "vicar of Christ" to "anti-Christ" is ridonkulous.

The Catholic Church does not reserve the diction to the pope alone: "As Christ's vicar, each bishop has the pastoral care of the particular Church entrusted to him..." {Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 390}. We may also consider the following statement from John Paul II: The Pope is called the "Vicar of Christ." This title should be considered within the entire context of the Gospel. Before ascending into heaven, Jesus said to the apostles: "I am with you always, until the end of the age" (Mt 28:20). Though invisible, He is personally present in His Church. He is likewise present in each Christian, by virtue of baptism and the other sacraments. It was usual to say, as early as the era of the Fathers, "Christianus alter Christus" ("The Christian is another Christ"), meaning by this to empahasize the dignity of the baptized and his vocation, through Christ, to holiness.

Furthermore, Christ brings about a special presence in every priest, who, when celebrating the Eucharist or administering the sacraments, does so In Persona Christi.

From this perspective, the expression "Vicar of Christ" assumes its true meaning. More than dignity, it alludes to service. It emphasizes the duties of the Pope in the Church, his Petrine Ministry, carried out for the good of the Church and the faithful. Saint Gregory The Great understood this perfectly when, out of all the titles connected to the functions of the Bishop Of Rome, he preferred that of Servus servorum Dei (Servant of the Servants of God).

The Pope is not the only one who holds this title. With regard to the Church entrusted to him, each bishop is Vicarius Christi. The Pope is Vicar of Christ with regard to the Church Of Rome and, through that Church, of every Church in communion with it -- a communion in faith as well as an institutional and canonical communion. Thus, if with this title one wants to refer to the dignity of the Bishop Of Rome, one cannot consider it apart from the dignity of the entire college of bishops, with which it is tightly bound, as it is to the dignity of each bishop, each priest, and each of the baptized.

What supreme dignity those men and women have who are consecrated, who, as their vocation, have chosen to embrace the nuptial dimension of the Church -- Christ's bride! Christ, Redeemer Of The World and of humanity, is the Bridegroom Of The Church and of all those who belong to it: "The bridegroom is with them" (cf. Mt 9:15). One duty of the Pope is to profess this truth and to render it present to the Church In Rome as well as to the entire Church, to all humanity, and to the whole world.

To allay to some degree your fears, which seem to arise from a profound faith, I would suggest a reading of Saint Augustine, who often repeated: "Vobis sum episcopus, vobiscum christianus" ("I am a bishop for you, I am a Christian with you"; cf., for example, Sermon 340.1: J.P. Migne, ed., Patrologia Latina 38.1483). On further reflection, christianus has far greater significance than episcopus, even if the subject is the Bishop of Rome.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:51 pm

roblaine wrote:
Hi Josh,
I think you may be splitting hairs. If, as the Catholics believe, the Pope does stand in place of Christ, is it not fair to say that the Pope has supplanted Christ's authority and leadership over the church? It is not as if Catholics simply believe that Jesus is acting through the Pope, rather they actually believe that he (the Pope) is God on earth, or at a minimum carries the authority of God on earth. Those who believe the Catholic church's teachings on the subject would naturally look to the Pope for their spiritual guidence, rather than Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Consider the following quotes.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".


"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God. and the vicar of God."
Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary

"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power."
Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

I could go on and on. Catholic writings are replete with such statements.
(a) Catholics do not believe that the pope has supplanted Christ's place, but that he is Christ's trustworthy representative. (And Catholics do not believe that the pope is literally G-d on earth.) Basically, the role of the pope here is comparable to that of the bible in scripturalist traditions. Scripturalists do not see the bible as replacing G-d or Jesus or the Holy Spirit, but they do believe that it is a fully trustworthy agent of G-d. For them, there is no pitting the bible against G-d, and many would not think of the significance to their turning to the bible for spiritual guidance rather than to G-d and/or Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit directly. Likewise for Catholics with the pope (except for the large number of Catholics who do not buy into the official thought on this point).

(b) Catholic writings are not "replete" with such statements as you recount. And not nearly so replete as anti-Catholic writings are with citations of the same thimbleful of provocative quotes.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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anochria
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by anochria » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:01 am

And not nearly so replete as anti-Catholic writings are with citations of the same thimbleful of provocative quotes.
That's definitely been my experience. I was actually mad when I learned most of what I had been taught about Catholics wasn't true.
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roblaine
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by roblaine » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:20 am

anochria wrote:
And not nearly so replete as anti-Catholic writings are with citations of the same thimbleful of provocative quotes.
That's definitely been my experience. I was actually mad when I learned most of what I had been taught about Catholics wasn't true.
I'm not sure why it is provocative to quote Catholic writings on the subject. If one wants to come to an understanding of what Catholics believe on any particular subject, I imagine that looking at the writings and history of the Catholic Church is a good place to start.
It matters little where a man may be at this moment; the point is whether he is growing.
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:26 pm

roblaine wrote:
anochria wrote:
And not nearly so replete as anti-Catholic writings are with citations of the same thimbleful of provocative quotes.


That's definitely been my experience. I was actually mad when I learned most of what I had been taught about Catholics wasn't true.


I'm not sure why it is provocative to quote Catholic writings on the subject. If one wants to come to an understanding of what Catholics believe on any particular subject, I imagine that looking at the writings and history of the Catholic Church is a good place to start.


The Catholic Church has nearly two thousand years of history, and there are many thousands (possibly millions) of Catholic writings. Not every scrap is of stellar quality, and there are plenty that, taken in isolation, would leave an unfair impression of the tradition as a whole.

Anti-Catholics trot around the same fistful of quotes as if they were the apotheosis of Catholic faith. Most who traffick in these quotes are too illiterate in Catholicism to appreciate their actual significance. Google-search the quotes, and you can quickly see who they are important to - they appear on a bazillion Catholic-bashing sites, and on a few Catholic sites that respond to Catholic-bashing (if you have any interest, you can check one such link for a Catholic response to your Pius V quote).

Let the provocateurs spend a year or two doing some conscientious research, with actual fieldwork; let them spend some time in Catholic worship services and Catholic adult education classes, and let them spend some time familiarizing themselves with major pieces of classic and contemporary Catholic literature. Then they will be poised to paint a fair portrait of what Catholicism is really about. But that takes more effort than cut-and-pasting whatever bloody shirt they latch hold of.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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Re: Vicar of Christ?

Post by roblaine » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:49 pm

I'm a little surprised that you have a problem with provocative statements. Anyways, I've expressed my position on the issue, and I have little interest in convincing you to join me. It seems that you have a rather high view of your own intellect; therefore such attempts would be fruitless.

By the way, I recall in our past on-line discussions that your tone was not so abrasive. Regardless, I always find your posts to be thought provoking.

Robin
It matters little where a man may be at this moment; the point is whether he is growing.
-George MacDonald

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