Converting to the RCC

USMCatholic
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by USMCatholic » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:13 pm

Thanks for all your cut/paste/commentary, but I do not wish to go into that much detail about your response as thorough as it was. The basic jest of your response is that [Tiller's sinful money was blood money and the Lutheran's should not have taken it. Kicked him out, shunned him until he repented]. I think that is a fair distillation of what you said.

If that were the case then no church, yours, Protestant or RCC would ever have a dime of tithing because ever church member is a sinner. Therefore, per your use of the terminology “blood money” because of Tiller’s sin of abortion could be used for any money donated by any other sinful church member that made money. You are, and rightly so, placing a degree of "severity" to his sin just like Catholic Christians do. I thought you were a non-denominational Protestant Christian that basically states that "sin is sin" in God's eyes and there is no degree of sin like Catholic Christians adhere to, such as, venial and mortal sin. Naturally, mortal sin includes murder which is what Tiller “potentially” was doing and what his killer appears to have done.

We have to know the "state of ones heart" to commit mortal sin and often that is only for God to know. Not to defend Tiller, but rather your presumption of guilt. Tiller may in his heart of hearts believe that the fetus is a non-living parasitic organism that is only viable "after" birth, not actual human life as we define it. If that were truly the case, then God will judge Tiller on what he knows/believes in his heart. Is the mentally compromised/retarded person that kills a person guilty of the “sin” murder? He may not understand what he has done, no less than what Tiller may have accepted intellectually and in his heart.

Now, you may argue that it was the money Tiller made from murder which is different from the money you make as a sinful laborer, but still honest labor. That would be a good and valid point. The problem is that you again would be making the assumption that this money was from those abortions. If fact, you (we) do not know that. It could have been money donated from another source, ie, a will, his family, another job…etc. You really do not know. So, in your blanket statement, I think you have besmirched some probably very decent Lutherans not knowing all the facts, yet were still willing to accuse everyone/thing.

Also, as a non-denominational Protestant Christian you also continue to use very Catholic Christian language, if not in word, certainly in over-all definition. You said that the church should kick him out and shun him until he repented. Heck, that’s like an excommunication. I thought you said you were not Catholic, yet you adhere to several Catholic precepts, ie, degrees of sin and excommunication. You are very kind to accept these Catholic precepts.

I, like you, from a human standpoint find any excuse from Tiller highly suspect due to his education and history but that is me talking opposed to not God who knows all and ultimately judges all. Therefore, I can not say for sure. Now that Tiller is gone there will probably be thousands of new babies born that may grace our earth. God and Country

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:01 pm

USMCatholic,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

You wrote:
Also, as a non-denominational Protestant Christian you also continue to use very Catholic Christian language, if not in word, certainly in over-all definition. You said that the church should kick him out and shun him until he repented. Heck, that’s like an excommunication. I thought you said you were not Catholic, yet you adhere to several Catholic precepts, ie, degrees of sin and excommunication. You are very kind to accept these Catholic precepts.
Hey, truth is truth. I did not know the RCC had a copyright on it! :shock: I heard Bill O'Reilly (Catholic) talking about the millions Tiller made while he killed 60,000 babies. Are you confident God will let Tiller off the hook if Tiller has a plausible rationalization? It would seem the opposition of so many Christians to what he was doing would have caused some serious re-examination on his part -if he was interested, that is. Money has a way of blinding folks though.

As far as degrees of sin goes, that seems plain to me. Jesus spoke of "greater sin" so, only being moderately slow of mind, I assumed there had to be "lesser". Read it for myself. And Paul was pretty plain about that excommunication stuff.

How did you know I am non-denominational? Even the RCC is a denomination, since it has a name and is organized.

USMCatholic
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by USMCatholic » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:55 pm

Yes, copyright sounds adequate to me, but not in the strict sense that the federal USPTO provides.

Non-denominational is a kind of blanket statement for Christian churches that typically are of the Protestant persuasion with a single church/house/meeting hall. Still those churches (gathering of believers) are, in reality, denominational because they usually call themselves something…not just…blah. Here in Virginia groups will call themselves a Bible study, like Bob’s Bible Study or I have heard that there is a Steve Gregg Bible Study. In the strictest sense that is “denominational”…it has a name and a meeting place. Now, denominational is a matter degree…the RCC is a huge denominational church, Faith Trinity is a large denominational church and Steve Gregg bible study is a relatively small church.

As to degrees of sin. I am pleased that you see the degree of sin that the RCC holds to whether you want to call it venial or mortal. Most non-Catholic Christians I know will not/do not adhere to sin in a degree/level. So I toast you on your openness and maybe you can convince the others likewise. God and Country

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thomas
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by thomas » Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:37 am

Just a little update of my post of 29 May.

I was called back down to my old church yesterday to give evidence , being the ex-pres. for several years.

It seems about a month ago the National Church wanted the pastor to sign over the property to the NC. This property at one time had a sale offer of $1 million. The pastor refused as the property belongs to the congregation. In fact my name is one of those on the deed.

The NC had an office for 2 yrs., upstairs, in the SS building for which they were not paying rent. They however were to pay for the utilities , but were 5 months in arrears. We were using this area also for hosting mission groups from the States , whith which we were able to support the church financially. This program was taken away from us , primarily because the NC wanted the money.

When the pastor refused to sign the papers , the NC took all of his office furniture and dumped it downstairs on the sidewalk. They also hounded him to the point of near collapse during the church services. They also erased the pastors computer. The members recovered all the furnature and re-set up his office upstairs.

The NC rented anouther office. Without notice they returned emptyed the upstars rooms of not only their property but that of the church. This includes throwing all of the church records on the floor and taking the filing cabinents , the same with bookcases , taking a stove that had been there for over 20 yrs.etc. and were even after the curtains and light fictures.

The church members found out and chained up the doors to prevent further theft. The NC president returned for more on 3 Aug. and being denied access , proceeded to cut the piping and electrical connections on an Air conditioner compressor , located on the roof, in order to take it. At this point the police were called and they were tossed off the property.

If the issue is not resolved to the churchs satisfaction they will be taking it to court. I volunteered as a witness as I had been in charge of this area for several years and know the property and past agreements.

The present NC pres. is on the way out on 29 Aug. Instead it has been proposed to appoint the pastor who happens to be a child molester as the new head of the church.

When a church goes bad , it can be very bad indeed.
Dios te bendiga y te guarde

Priestly1
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Priestly1 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:22 pm

I am glad to read a reasonable discussion on Catholicism, or as I call it: The Historic Church of Antiquity. Much of my Bio is similar to that of Steve Gregg, though I am only pushing 50 years old. I know him well and even married one of his graduates, and we have 8 kids. I was a University educated Protestant Minister-Elder-Teacher. I became a Protestant during the Jesus Movement/Charismatic Renewal Era of the 70s. I was educated in Protestant Private Schools from 7th grade on ward. I began my education (which at first I hated) in Koine Greek in 7th Grade....and I wanted to be a cross between Billy Graham and Kieth Green with the flare and street bluntness of the Resurrection Band and Servant.I was married in 1984 at 18. I was a co-Pastor/Elder by 1986. I knew Koine Greek very well by then and used only the Koine Greek Bible. I left Protestantism in 1996 and finished Western Rite Orthodox Seminary 1999, and entered holy orders as a Priest-Educator. After years of ministry, illness and further study I and my Family have become Eastern Rite Catholics...though we attend a Roman Rite Catholic Parish in the Diocese of saint Cloud, MN USA.

I cannot call my spiritual development since 1976 to be a conversion.......for me me it has been seeking and finding, knocking and having the doors opened....and I due credit much to my diligent study and learning of the Koine Greek Language and my devotion to the Holy Scriptures and and to the ancient Faith and Church our Lord Jesus Christ established as a man, among men in time, space and history.

Christ established His church as an organic, living, thriving and growing organized Community of Faith - A Living Body - which spread from 120 souls in Jerusalem to 2.5 billion souls across this Globe. Not only does Christ have Historical Reality, Historicity and Antiquity...so does His Living and Organized Church Community. Yes, our form of worship seems antiquated....but this is the nature of Biblical Worship we inherited, preserved and culturally developed from our 12 Apostolic Founders and their Nazarene Community. Yes we have a community magisterium of bishops presided over by our Episcopal Primate....this too we inherited, preserved and culturally developed from our 12 Apostolic Founders and their Nazarene Community. Yes we have Synods and Councils as did our 12 Founding Apostles. What we have received from these 12 Apostles of Christ, their Sacred Deposit of Faith - our Sacred Tradition, whether through oral transmission or by written transmission....we hold firm to as Peter, Paul and all of the Apostles taught us to. Our Community is derived from the Synagogue Community of Jewish Christians of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and Galilee, as the original language of the Letter of James clearly shows when it speaks of the assembly of the Faithful as a Synagogue. We have Mebbaqarim (Bishops), Zeqanism (Presbyters) and Shamashim (Deacons)....as did the Synagogue System. Our community Parishes have the same design as the Second Temple Synagogue to this day. We have Liturgies daily, for various hours, holy days and a sacred calendar cycle as did the ancient Hebrews whom Jesus Christ and His Church was born of! And most Protestants still oberve our Sacred calendar according to their 16th traditions.Those who have separated from their Historic roots, Heritage and Antiquity may see these things as alien and strange...and rightly so. Most Protestants presume that their Church Tradition is what is described in the NT...but this is anachronism. All these things existed before the Historic Church, by her God given authority as "the supporter and defender of the Truth", defined and set the Canon for the Old and New Testaments in the late 4th and dawn of the 5th Century AD.

As a Protestant I wanted to discover and become an authentic Christian as described in the New Covenant Texts. I discovered the Church written about and written to in the New Testament. I have discovered the Church that determined authoritatively what was and was not received as Scripture. This is now my Church, which was written to and described in the NT...... Peter, James, John, Jude, Paul and the Evangelists wrote to My Church....the Historic and Living Church of Rome, of Antioch, of Corinth, of Thessaloniki, etc - we all still exist intact.... yet I do not see in the NT Canon letters written to the Church of Wittenburg, of Zurich, of Geneva, of Amsterdam or of Canterbury. When you hold a Bible Version in your hand as a Protestant, you hold the translated Written Tradition of the Catholic Church....we received it, preserved it, we bound it into a single Codex and we created the Table of Contents. This you received from the Historic Church Christ Himself Established among men, as a man, for all mankind to behold and to join as living stones if they only will. When we say "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" we do not mean that outside the Catholic Church you cannot come to Faith, Baptism and Salvation in Christ......but what is meant is this: If you sever a finger off from the Body it was once joined to and once derived it's life from, it shall surely perish in do course.....for outside the Body no organ or member can live on it's own. This is the teaching of Christ and His Apostles as expounded throughout the NT. The Catholic Church deems all who accept the Catholic Faith, as defined in the Nicene Creed, and are Baptized accordingly to be validly baptized Christians.......who are in baptismal communion with the Historic Body of Christ whose ancient and historic Credal Faith you hold dear. This impaired communion is real and salvific, but it is not full Communion - as you no longer share with us in the historic fulness of the ancient Christian Faith, Rites, Disciplines and Charismata. I wish Protestants would at least say this of us....that we are Christians as well....I think unbroken history bears this out. And yes, we have had our share of short comings - But look at Protestant history honestly.....so have you. No one in glass houses should cast stones. :o

Peace in Christ,
Rev. Fr. Ken Huffman
priestly1@hotmail.com or find me here:
https://www.facebook.com/rev.huffman
https://www.facebook.com/groups/601654799946998/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1473528082883161/

Priestly1
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Priestly1 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:52 pm

The historic Gospel, Christian Faith and community Discipline was well expounded and documented for the Church by the Apostles who appointed in every locality well trained and qualified bishops, presbyters and deacons to faithfully preserve it, teach it, apply it and defend it for the Body of Christ from generation to generation with the Guidance and Power of the Holy Spirit. The Christian Gospel, Faith and Discipline was not presented to the Body of the Faithful as options on a buffet table.....but as a whole and in it's fulness.

Since October 31, 1517 the individual has become the final authority as to the sense and application of the Scriptures and all the rest of it. This is error. Scripture is appropriate for many things, as Paul delineated, but he never stated that Scripture Alone was sufficient.....for God gave the Church, through Christ and in the Holy Spirit, ordained Prophets, ordained Apostles, ordained Teachers, ordained shepherds and ordained evangelists as well. This too Paul states, in complete refutation of the Sufficiency of scripture, and contextually the Scriptures Paul refers to are those Timothy was raised with...the Old Covenant Scriptures in the Greek Version, for as yet there was no body of works known as the New Covenant Scriptures.

The Apostles Peter, writing to the Historic Church, warned against the dangers of private interpretation from those who rejected ordained authority in the Church, who are both unstable and untrained in the Faith - Who twisted the words of Paul as they do the rest of the Scriptures. This is why I finally had to walk away from all my 16th Century presuppositions and all I was trained to believe.

I tried to find Sola Scriptura explicitly or implicitly expounded in the pages of the Bible Alone, but I was left Alone with no basis for it whatsoever - it is a self defeating proposition established to justify a Reformer's private interpretive authority and his subjective conscience as the Final authority when it comes to Christian Faith, Practice, Morality and Discipline. It is clear that Sola Scriptura is illogical and fallacious in that it has been the bowling ball which Luther threw into the pins of Western European Reformation. This wrecking ball immediately struck down and separated it into divided groups, and then factions, and then into 33,000 competing and rival sects. And all the ancient heresies erupted from within Protestantism into Cults. All claiming the Final Authority of the Bible Alone! All are Bible Believers! The Bible Alone and the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura immediately caused chaos and divisions in the Reformation never to be healed into Unity of Faith, Practice and Morals. And I knew that God was not the author and source of such chaos and division. So I left.....never looking back. I left the Buffet of Protestantism: The Traditions of the German-English Reformation, the Traditions of the Swiss-Scottish Reformation and the Traditions of the Radical Anabaptist Reformation. The Historic Church of the Historic Christ was not established among the 16th century Western Europeans.

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:32 pm

Ken,

You seem to at least imply that through the oral and written word your church has proceeded down to this day unchanged from the practice and teaching of the 1st century church. Is this correct?

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