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Re: Prayers to the Saints/Mary
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:28 pm
by darinhouston
anochria wrote:If we have direct access to the Father because of Christ, as was said rightly by Paidion, why do we as Christians intercede on each other's behalf in prayer, or ask for others to pray for us?
And if we are to intercede on one other's behalf and ask for others to pray for us, as Scripture indicates, then wouldn't it be logical that those who are seated with Christ, reigning with him (ie, the departed saints) would be worthy candidates to pray to the Father on our behalf?
I'm veiling my personal beliefs on this for a moment in hopes of reigniting this discussion, which I think is missing a few peices
Thoughts on these questions?
Sure, if we had any reasonable basis to believe that the saints could hear our pleas, then why not? But, that's precisely the problem here and begs the question -- we don't believe the saints in heaven have any ability to hear our prayers.
But, also, most who venerate the saints/mary do more than ask them to petition Christ on our behalf. They believe much more generally about the power of the saints/mary to "DO" things for us, and to grant us things. This is a different point, but is leads to the points regarding worship.
Re: Prayers to the Saints/Mary
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:36 pm
by anochria
Sure, if we had any reasonable basis to believe that the saints could hear our pleas, then why not? But, that's precisely the problem here and begs the question -- we don't believe the saints in heaven have any ability to hear our prayers.
I think there is a reasonable basis to believe that it is
possible., based on arguments from Rev. 20 and elsewhere (see my thread on
Reigning with Christ ).
That said, does this mean we should make hard and fast doctrine out of speculation and things we might imply from certain Scriptures? No. But, it does indicate to me that the problem with the Roman Catholic doctrines on this issue is not so much that some of them aren't possible, but that they are highly speculative.
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:01 pm
by Jill
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Re: Prayers to the Saints/Mary
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:44 pm
by anochria
Here are a few examples of how God calls us, in imitation of his Son, to intercede in prayer for one another.
1 Timothy 2:1-4
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured.
Philemon 1:22
And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.
James 5:14
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Of course all the power of intercession belongs to the Father, but He has chosen to interweave us together through intercessory prayer on each other's behalf. It's part of God's emphasis on creating a family, not a individualized self-help program, right?
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:02 pm
by Jill
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Re: Prayers to the Saints/Mary
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:47 am
by anochria
Useless would be the prayer of the wicked in times of a crisis I would think. And those who have been negligent to the express word of God. Do you think the mere prayers of the religiously pious avail anything more than just a do-gooder placation?
Did something I said cause you to insinuate that I think that?
Re: Prayers to the Saints/Mary
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:38 am
by darinhouston
anochria wrote:Sure, if we had any reasonable basis to believe that the saints could hear our pleas, then why not? But, that's precisely the problem here and begs the question -- we don't believe the saints in heaven have any ability to hear our prayers.
I think there is a reasonable basis to believe that it is
possible., based on arguments from Rev. 20 and elsewhere (see my thread on
Reigning with Christ ).
That said, does this mean we should make hard and fast doctrine out of speculation and things we might imply from certain Scriptures? No. But, it does indicate to me that the problem with the Roman Catholic doctrines on this issue is not so much that some of them aren't possible, but that they are highly speculative.
I haven't read your linked post, but this is essentially where I stand on the subject.
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:53 pm
by Jill
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Re: Prayers to the Saints/Mary
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:56 pm
by anochria
I'm sorry. I guess I just don't understand the point you were driving at.
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:45 pm
by Jill
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