Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

User avatar
RND
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Victorville, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by RND » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:05 pm

darinhouston wrote:
RND wrote:Darin, I also wanted to point out that I don't necessarily see our new bodies as being "spiritual" as much as being a completely different "physical" form that man cannot simply comprehend. Jesus sat at meat with Cleopas and his companion and yet "vanished" into thin air. Jesus asked the disciples to touch him and told them He was not a "spirit" because a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus "ate" broiled fish and honeycomb in His glorified body and yet was able to readily pass through dimensions unknown. A body that can pass through dimensions and still eat? That is certainly a body I want!
I definitely agree with this one -- did I imply otherwise? If so, I need to clarify something because I definitely don't believe our "resurrected bodies" upon Christ's return to be merely spiritual.
Darin, maybe I just saw where you mentioned, "In any event, "alive" spiritually in heaven with Christ does not seem to have the same meaning as "alive" here on earth..." and just assumed. My bad!

Glad you have the same general opinion about what our glorified body will be like!

PS: As an aside, sometimes people ask what heaven will be like or how old they might be there, etc. I have no real idea what heaven will be like other than "...eye has not seen, ear has not heard..." but I do speculate on how "old" we will appear. 33 1/2 years old. The age Christ was when he died. Pure speculation on my part, I have nothing from scripture to confirm such a notion.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by darinhouston » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:06 pm

RND wrote:Darin, maybe I just saw where you mentioned, "In any event, "alive" spiritually in heaven with Christ does not seem to have the same meaning as "alive" here on earth..." and just assumed. My bad!

Glad you have the same general opinion about what our glorified body will be like!

PS: As an aside, sometimes people ask what heaven will be like or how old they might be there, etc. I have no real idea what heaven will be like other than "...eye has not seen, ear has not heard..." but I do speculate on how "old" we will appear. 33 1/2 years old. The age Christ was when he died. Pure speculation on my part, I have nothing from scripture to confirm such a notion.
Maybe the confusion is I refer to heaven as the place where Christ presently is seated and where the dead in Christ may or may not be "located" in some "spiritual" yet to be bodily resurrected form -- it is not the place where I expect to spend eternity in my resurrected body.

User avatar
RND
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Victorville, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by RND » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:09 pm

Gotcha Darin.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary

tom
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:52 am

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by tom » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:57 pm

darinhouston wrote: Well, even if that's what 2 cor 5 says, I don't know for sure what it means. I think it's quite possible that from the earthly perspective, time will have passed, but since they will be "alive" only in the spiritual realm, time may not have the same meaning and time may not seem to have passed from Abraham's death to Christ's return, so I probably hold a middle position between "soul sleep" and the conscious life of the saints in heaven. We're not told much about it, and I prefer not to develop doctrine around something so speculative (as I believe RC have).
Darin, I think you're reaching. At least Catholics have the doctrine of Purgutory that is Biblical. This middle position of yours sounds like a cop out.

darinhouston wrote:In any event, "alive" spiritually in heaven with Christ does not seem to have the same meaning as "alive" here on earth, and the great chasm between hades/heaven/earth etc. would suggest that there is no way to communicate or observe across it (unless you're God of course).
I think you may have written this too fast and not read through this passage, (Luke 16:19-31). The context of this passage is they can see what's going on between the chasm! There's understanding and conversation going on between the two sides. The Bible teaches that the Saints in Heaven know what's going on and can pray for us.

Tom

User avatar
RND
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Victorville, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by RND » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:46 am

tom wrote:Darin, I think you're reaching. At least Catholics have the doctrine of Purgutory that is Biblical. This middle position of yours sounds like a cop out.

I think you may have written this too fast and not read through this passage, (Luke 16:19-31). The context of this passage is they can see what's going on between the chasm! There's understanding and conversation going on between the two sides. The Bible teaches that the Saints in Heaven know what's going on and can pray for us.

Tom
Tom, if I may, and without speaking for Darin (since I think his views differ of mine somewhat) I don't think there are any other areas of scripture, other than Luke 16:19-31, that paint such a picture that this parable paints. Maybe you could point me to them if I'm missing them. I believe there are some extremely fascinating and wonderfully rich word pictures and metaphors that fill this parable and I think they are there for a reason to help in our understanding. As for being a "true picture" of what happens at death, I'm not too sure how many here would agree this is a picture of "purgatory."

For example, there are many things that I think need to be addressed in the parable to help us reaching greater understanding of what is actually being said and conveyed by Jesus. What does the rich man clothed in purple and fine linen represent? The table? The crumbs? The dogs? Lazarus? The sores? It might be helpful to see if there might be a connection between Lazarus, which actually means "Eleazar" (God's helper) and the character of "Eliezer" who was a steward of Abraham (Gen. 15:2) who's name meant "God of help." Was this purposeful by Jesus in conveying this so that the Pharisees would know? I kinda think so, but then that's me. I'm always looking for the deeper meaning of what is being said in scripture.
Hope that helps.

I can tell you I'm certainly not too keen on the idea that the dearly departed are up in heaven right now looking down on us and what is happening in the world or looking at those roasting, toasting and fricasseeing in hell! Sadly Tom, I'm certain you've been to a few funerals in your lifetime - I was at four last year. Have you ever been to a funeral where it was told of the dearly departed that they were in hell roasting?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:59 am

tom wrote:
darinhouston wrote: Well, even if that's what 2 cor 5 says, I don't know for sure what it means. I think it's quite possible that from the earthly perspective, time will have passed, but since they will be "alive" only in the spiritual realm, time may not have the same meaning and time may not seem to have passed from Abraham's death to Christ's return, so I probably hold a middle position between "soul sleep" and the conscious life of the saints in heaven. We're not told much about it, and I prefer not to develop doctrine around something so speculative (as I believe RC have).
Darin, I think you're reaching. At least Catholics have the doctrine of Purgutory that is Biblical. This middle position of yours sounds like a cop out.
I don't think I'm copping out -- I have no problem holding to the "intermediate heaven" position -- I just don't think it makes as much sense. Either position doesn't suggest a communication or even observation path. One thing the article I provided doesn't address is the notion that "witness" doesn't always (or even usually) refer to "observer," but instead to "testifier." That is consistent with the approach presented in the article that the reference to "cloud of witnesses" is a colorful way to say that we have many saints before us that have testified to faithfulness, God's plan, etc.

In any event -- how can you say that Purgatory is biblical? Do you refer to Luke 16?

tom wrote:
darinhouston wrote:In any event, "alive" spiritually in heaven with Christ does not seem to have the same meaning as "alive" here on earth, and the great chasm between hades/heaven/earth etc. would suggest that there is no way to communicate or observe across it (unless you're God of course).
I think you may have written this too fast and not read through this passage, (Luke 16:19-31). The context of this passage is they can see what's going on between the chasm! There's understanding and conversation going on between the two sides. The Bible teaches that the Saints in Heaven know what's going on and can pray for us.

Tom
I think this merits its own thread -- I'll open a topic to discuss this parable in particular.

popeman
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:19 pm

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by popeman » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:48 pm

Hello Tom,

Sorry if I am writing a bit strong on this site, but I get tired of the Protestant hypocrisy and lack of knowledge of their own history. Therefore, it is always nice to remind them when they bring up some obtuse Catholic info as if it is the end-all of anti-Catholic arguments.

As you discuss topics with anti-Catholic Protestants and try to bring up historical fact to faith/doctrine it has been nearly in vein to bring up some issue from the very earliest Christian. That being said, maybe you may want to bring up the historical Christian roots/writings/preaching of the Protestant movement. The only problem is that Protestant theology has changed so dramatically and continues to morph as each new Protestant preacher, born-again believer interprets Scripture in “their” own view.

As Martin Luther (Mary forever virgin), Calvin (multiple births), Zwingli (Mary forever virgin) Bullinger, Wesley, et al had doctrinal beliefs in faith, these doctrinal beliefs/interpretations were slowly morphed over time by more modern “progressive” Protestants (ie, many on this forum discussion point). The lesson that one can take away from this is simple…wait a generation or so, and these modern/progressive doctrinal beliefs will be passé, foolish, completely off-tract just like Protestants today believe of Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Bullinger, Wesley, et al. That is the true nature of a Protestant, to “protest”, never really submit to God, only themselves and their own interpretations.

That is why Acts 15 is so important, Tom. It shows how even the earliest Scriptural Christians submitted to the Church Authority when Christian doctrine interpretation was in doubt. There was a body of Church Authority that “mandated” (that is a scriptural word and it mean to ‘an authoritative order or command, to order or require; make mandatory’) what Paul, Barnabus and the whole congregation at Antioch was to believe … not what “they” interpreted! This discussion about Mary being the Ark is frustrating because many of the arguments have been circular. When they have not been circular then they get one-sided by having to prove by Scripture “verbatim” because “inference” is not tolerated unless it has to do with modern/progressive Protestant doctrine.

For this reason(s), I would love to see Protestants help me find that NT Church in Acts 15 where we (Christians) can go and ask that Church “Hey, what about this Mary thing, what about this Purgatory thing....?” They (that Church with mandating power) can mandate what we are to believe and it would be the end of the story. We know that this Church has to be around and alive because Scripture tells us that the Church will be forever. Protestants do not want to find that Church….not in Scriptural history , in today’s modern world or in the future because it would take away from their ability to “protest”, to self-interpret Scripture to their satisfaction generation after generation after generation after generation….

Peace baby, Popeman

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:21 pm

popeman wrote:That being said, maybe you may want to bring up the historical Christian roots/writings/preaching of the Protestant movement. The only problem is that Protestant theology has changed so dramatically and continues to morph as each new Protestant preacher, born-again believer interprets Scripture in “their” own view.
Do you honestly believe there is some meaningful degree of uniform doctrinal belief among the many parishes and catholic churches (or even between popes or councils?)

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by darinhouston » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:27 pm

popeman wrote:For this reason(s), I would love to see Protestants help me find that NT Church in Acts 15 where we (Christians) can go and ask that Church “Hey, what about this Mary thing, what about this Purgatory thing....?” They (that Church with mandating power) can mandate what we are to believe and it would be the end of the story. We know that this Church has to be around and alive because Scripture tells us that the Church will be forever. Protestants do not want to find that Church….not in Scriptural history , in today’s modern world or in the future because it would take away from their ability to “protest”, to self-interpret Scripture to their satisfaction generation after generation after generation after generation….
Again, it comes down to Apostlic Succession. If you can convince me that there is some unbroken apostolic authority that bridges the first couple of centuries, I can then consider the authority of the councils of bishops. Rather than speak past us "anti-Catholic Protestants" and complain about our motives to your fellow Roman Catholic, why don't you engage the debate and actually present arguments or negate ours (as trivial and mundane as you may seem to think they are).

popeman
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:19 pm

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

Post by popeman » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:51 pm

Dear Tom,

Have any of these Protestants read the Catechism or the compendium to it? Do they think that every walking Catholic is walking doctrine? Catholic Christians fail daily (if not more like Protestants) because they forget doctrinal faith. Got a question? Go to the Catechism ...that is about as close to the Pope you will get and before you get to God. That is what is great about the Catholic Christian Church...we will stand by doctrine and even write a book about it (in concert with scripture so pleaseeee don't say carzy things like "that's why we have the Bible"). Protestants will neverrrrrrr write down doctrine that reflects scripture because it changes every darn year. Still confused, then find that Acts 15 Church we can go to....Scripture tells us its there! Don't yell at me, don't question me, just find me the Church and I'll pay the airfare. whoyaa Popeman

Post Reply

Return to “Roman Catholicism”