Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?

[darinhouston]

Tom did you read my post above on this point?

[RND]

RND wrote: One last thing. We are called to pray "directly" to the Father in Jesus' name.

I can understand how 'popeman' says he gets frustrated. I don't see how praying for one another takes away from God. I was given an analogy comparison between Protestants,(Evangelicals), and Catholics.

Catholics believe that Heaven is like this: We are greeted by many people that are beautiful. Beautifully adorned in great clothing glimmering and shinning. They bring us into a great hall full of beautiful paintings and tapestries on the walls. At our feet are beautiful rugs laced with gold and jewels. Floors of precious stones. Everyone is happy smiling, laughing and glade to see us. We are lead down a hall into the throne room of God. It is more glorious then what we have just seen. Dozens of beautiful people around the throne. The throne is unexplainable in it's beauty. Finally we see God on His throne. What a wonder!

The Protestant view of Heaven is like this: We come into a room stark and bare. We are lead down a hall into the throne room of God. The throne is of God is of drab concrete. Finally we see the glory of God. What a wonder!

Nothing Biblical here Tom.

Don't you see that the Saints are given by God to us to lead us to God?

I thought that was the job of the God the Father by the power of Holy Spirit.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

1 Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

If God didn't want to show off His Saints why would he ask us to pray for each other?

People can pray for each other, just no need to pray to dead people. They're dead. Can't hear. People pray to God the Father by way of Jesus. Like this: "Father in heaven, I pray that one day you reveal the truth of your word to Tom. Thank you Father for hearing and doing. In Jesus precious name, Amen."

God loves us to come to each other when we need help.

No doubt. He loves to do this when we don't too!

When my son goes to his sister to ask for help when he could have come to me, I am not offended! I am honored that he feels confidant enough to go to her.

Me too.

[tom]

I'm sorry, tom, but we're not in heaven yet. We don't see any basis to believe we can commune with the dead in that way.

Do you really believe what the Bible says or do you only believe what your tradition tells you? The Christians that have died are more alive then we are! Aren't we surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses?

Tom

[popeman]

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

ADOLPH HITLER

[darinhouston]

I'm sorry, tom, but we're not in heaven yet. We don't see any basis to believe we can commune with the dead in that way.

Do you really believe what the Bible says or do you only believe what your tradition tells you? The Christians that have died are more alive then we are! Aren't we surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses?

Tom

Tom, are you aware of the Protestant teachings on those verses?

[RND]

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

ADOLPH HITLER

Did you know Hitler was a Catholic popeman?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitl ... us_beliefs

Adolf Hitler was brought up as a Roman Catholic. According to historian Bradley F. Smith, Hitler's father, though nominally a Catholic, was a freethinker,[1] while his mother was a practicing Catholic.[2] According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.[3] Georg Ritter von Schönerer's writings and the written legacy of his Pan-German Away from Rome! movement, which agitated against the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the 19th century, may have influenced the young Adolf Hitler.[4]


On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."


Hitler greets a Catholic Cardinal


Hitler leaves the Marine Church in Wilhelmshaven.

[darinhouston]

I certainly don't believe in the Catholic doctrines/dogmas we've been discussing, but I would ask that we not resort to this sort of "guilt by association." Popeman and Tom can no doubt point to Protestants through time that have similarly tainted the name of Christianity. The same point is raised by athiests against all Christians, and it is equally lost on that argument.

The point would be peripheraly relevant to a discussion on the infallibility of the pope, the wisdom of the RC church at times in history, etc.

But for a topical discussion like this, please refrain.

[RND]

I certainly don't believe in the Catholic doctrines/dogmas we've been discussing, but I would ask that we not resort to this sort of "guilt by association." Popeman and Tom can no doubt point to Protestants through time that have similarly tainted the name of Christianity. The same point is raised by athiests against all Christians, and it is equally lost on that argument.

The point would be peripheraly relevant to a discussion on the infallibility of the pope, the wisdom of the RC church at times in history, etc.

But for a topical discussion like this, please refrain.

Darin, it is "popeman" that brought up Hitler, I did not. Therefore it is he that opened the box so to speak. Did Hitler's truth and justice include the attempted extermination of a group of people? Nor do I see this simply as a "guilt by association" situation. There is increasing knowledge that the hierarchy of the RCC (read: leadership) was not as squeaky clean regarding the "Holocaust" as some would like to convey.

I had no intention of bringing up anything "Hitler" in this discussion until someone decided to use a quote of his very unwisely.

[darinhouston]

Darin, it is "popeman" that brought up Hitler, I did not. Therefore it is he that opened the box so to speak. Did Hitler's truth and justice include the attempted extermination of a group of people? Nor do I see this simply as a "guilt by association" situation. There is increasing knowledge that the hierarchy of the RCC (read: leadership) was not as squeaky clean regarding the "Holocaust" as some would like to convey.

I had no intention of bringing up anything "Hitler" in this discussion until someone decided to use a quote of his very unwisely.

Let's just all leave this one alone for this thread.

[darinhouston]

I'm sorry, tom, but we're not in heaven yet. We don't see any basis to believe we can commune with the dead in that way.

Do you really believe what the Bible says or do you only believe what your tradition tells you? The Christians that have died are more alive then we are! Aren't we surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses?

Tom

Tom, in the event you aren't aware of the Protestant teachings in this area, the following (rather long) article is pretty good at describing both the RC and at least one Protestant position (I think).

"I Believe in the Communion of Saints"

An Evangelical Perspective

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Ernesto Florendo
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INTRODUCTION

Among the gains that I have had in my dialogues with Roman Catholic believers are the following: 1) a greater appreciation of the importance of learning the history of the Christian Church, 2) a realization that no one church tradition captures the fullness of doctrinal truth, 3) a greater impetus for studying Scripture with more openness, and 4) a greater longing for humble dialogue among all sincere believers in Jesus Christ to the end that there may be a discernible unity based on truth and love.

In view of this, I have recently investigated the concept of "the Communion of Saints," which is a fundamental doctrine among Roman Catholics, but is little mentioned in evangelical circles. Belief in the communion of saints is part of the Apostles' Creed which is considered to be an orthodox statement of certain essentials of the Christian Faith and is probably acceptable to most conservative Christian groups. The Catholic understanding is pretty much unequivocal. On the other hand, there seems to be little exposition among evangelicals concerning this concept with the specific phaseology "communion of saints." The following statement by J.I. Packer is one of the few that I have encountered:

"It is usual to treat this phrase as affirming the real union in Christ of the Church 'militant here on earth' with the church triumphant as is indicated in Hebrews 12:22-24 - and it may be that the clause was originally meant to signify communion in holy things (word, sacrament, worship, prayers), and to make the true but distinct point that in the church there is real sharing in the life of God." (1)

This essay seeks to address this evangelical silence. In particular, it is meant to be a critique of the Catholic understanding from a Biblical perspective. We begin therefore by offering the following capsulized understanding of the Roman-Catholic concept.

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC VIEW

The Catechism of the Catholic Church expounds the doctrine under two headings. First, communion in spiritual goods describes "the riches of Christ" which are "communicated" to all the members of the Church through the sacraments. Four items are specifically mentioned: a) sacraments; b) charisms, or gifts and graces - given by the Spirit for edification; c) stewardship of the Lords' goods; and d) communion in charity. Second, communion of the Church of Heaven and Earth. There is the Church triumphant (they are now in heaven contemplating in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as He is), the Church in purgatory, and the Church militant (those believers who are still on earth). This communion involves the intercession of the saints (those who are now in heaven pray for us, and we benefit greatly if we ask them to pray for us) and communion with the dead by honoring their memory and praying for those in purgatory that they might be loosed from their sins. (2)

PURPOSE

This article is not meant to be a comprehensive critique of the Catholic view. It is however a focused examination of the doctrine of the intercession of the departed saints, who are thought to be in heaven fully enjoying the presence of God and beholding Him in His glory.

GENERAL BIBLICAL FOUNDATIONS

Two passages in the New Testament give us general foundations for the doctrine of the communion of saints: Ephesians 3:14-19 and Hebrews 12:22-24.

"For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." -- Ephesians 3:14-19.

The apostle Paul mentions the whole family in heaven and on earth which derives its name from the Father. It would be tempting to conclude that His family in heaven consists of those believers who have already died. These departed saints are considered to be the "Church triumphant" and are "alive unto God" and "enjoying the fullness of life in the very presence of God." They are those whom Paul elsewhere describes as having already "run the race" and "fought the good fight" (2 Timothy 4:7).

This hasty conclusion is unwarranted however. A more reasonable approach is to seek broad Biblical support for the concept. At the outset, Paul's prayer for the growth of his readers "together with all the saints" need not refer to an active communion between departed saints and living believers.

"You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire, to darkness, gloom and storm, to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned. The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, 'I am trembling with fear.' But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." -- Hebrews 12:18-24.

The writer to the Hebrews was contrasting the inability of OT believers to approach God and the joyful entry of NT believers into the very presence of God, along with the angels and the spirits of righteous men made perfect. The OT involved physical "shadows" that highlighted the separation of sinners from the Holy God. In the NT, believers are able to come to God because of Jesus' mediation. It should be noted however that the scene portrayed by the Scripture writer is best interpreted to refer to a future fulfillment. This must be the sense of "thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly" and the "spirits of righteous men made perfect." This must be so since our present encounter with angels is very limited. The present service of angels is largely a silent one (cf. Heb. 1:14 and 13:2).

THE "CLOUD OF WITNESSES"

One passage which is commonly cited to support the idea of communion of saints is Hebrews 12:1-3.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."

The "cloud of witnesses" mentioned here refers to those departed believers who have triumphed in life by their faith. We have an illustrative list of them in Hebrews 11. These witnesses are such in the sense that they are a testimony that we too can triumph by faith. But are these witnesses looking at us, perhaps cheering, or even presently ministering to us? The Catholic says, "Certainly! In fact, it is to our benefit that we should ask their help by their intercession."

The Catholic doctrine of intercession by departed saints is said to be a much better version of what we as believers here on earth do for one another - that is, just as we ask others to pray for us now, how much better can those who have gone ahead of us do so because they are now living with God in heaven. I myself would probably be excited about this notion, except that Scripture does not allow it.

Let's examine Hebrews 11. The writer does not in any way speak of any present service or ministering to us by these departed saints. What they are commended for are their accomplishments in their lifetime on earth. They died in faith. Then, significantly, the writer says,

"These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." -- Hebrews 11:39-40.

This passage now gives us a preliminary idea about where the "Church triumphant" is. Because of faith, they succesfully lived their life on earth. And what awaits them is their glorification - which, of course, is deferred until the time when we too will be made perfect. This cloud of witnesses has triumphed and we would do well to remember them, learn from them, and be encouraged by their example.

What is our response, being aware of the "presence" of these witnesses. The writer does not say, "let us petition them for their prayers." Instead he says, 1) "let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," and 2) "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus ..." Nothing here about "the intercession of the saints." The silence is in fact a positive silence that disallows petitioning the dead for their prayers.

Let us consider two illustrations to show that this "cloud of witnesses" refers to example rather than to present ministry (intercession). The first is that of Moses and the second, that of the Old Testament priests.

Hebrews 3:1-6 contains a comparison between the PAST ministry of Moses and the PRESENT ministry of Jesus :

"Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast."

Moses' ministry has been finished as far as the author of Hebrews is concerned. If Moses continues to do something today, it appears like the Lord did not like us to know it. A better conclusion however is that Moses does not have a present ministry (since he is dead). No need for concern though because Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. He is

"able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for us." -- Hebrews 7:25.

In like manner, the OT priests performed their intercessory functions while they were alive. Death put a stop to these earthly activities and there is no suggestion that a better ministry has been given to them after they have died. On the other hand, Jesus has a permanent priesthood because He lives forever.

"Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." -- Hebrews 7:23.

I have surveyed how the NT handles the saints of the past, the common thing being that their past life is for us to imitate or learn from. There is no mention of present ministry. No mention of their intercession. Oh yes, the Bible is very silent on that.

GOD IS "THE GOD OF THE LIVING"

"The Bible says little about the intercession of the saints in heaven. Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the saints of the Old Covenant) as being alive to God (Mark 12:26-27) and He himself conversed with Elijah and Moses on the mountain (Matt. 17:3). Otherwise the Bible is silent on this topic. But nowhere in Scripture does Jesus forbid his followers to address the saints who are living with God in heaven. The Holy Spirit led the early Christians to accept this practice." (3)

This much is the Biblical basis for intercession of the saints in heaven according to Alan Schreck, author of the book Catholic and Christian. Let us examine the first passage.

"Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken." -- Mark 12:26.

Does this passage teach that the departed saints are "alive" and in heaven? The context shows that the issue under discussion was the resurrection - which can only mean the Final Resurrection at the end of the age. It is because of the certainty of this resurrection that these OT believers are considered "living." God can legitimately refer to himself as "their God" even while they are at present dead.

The Apostle Peter gives a very clear commentary regarding dead OT saints, represented by the example of David in Acts 2:22-26. Speaking in relation to Jesus' resurrection, Peter in part says :

"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. For David did not ascend to heaven ... " -- Acts 2:29-34.

Peter's statement was made after Jesus had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven. Christ's death and resurrection were central truths of the gospel that the apostles preached. Because Jesus died and rose again, believers in both the OT and the NT are not "gone forever" since they will be raised to life when Christ returns.

Some would argue that these Scriptures do not exclude the saints being alive as "souls" or "spirits." As such, surely they must be in heaven, in the very presence of God, where they can intercede for us in a more perfect manner than when they were on earth. This however, cannot be so. Two other lines of Scriptural evidence go against this notion a) OT prophets were unable to see the fulfillment of their prophecies; and b) the natural man cannot inherit the imperishable kingdom of God.

"For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." -- Matthew 13:17.

The force of this saying is lost if these prophets are now witnessing what is currently happening on the earth. The same truth is taught by the Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 1:10-12 :

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets ... searched intently and with greatest care ... the time and circumstances ... the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you ... Even angels long to look into these things."

Notice carefully that the prophets are referred to in the past tense (what they did or failed to do while they were alive on earth). In contrast, angels "long to look into these things" (present activity). One more passage confirms the picture that we have painted so far, that departed believers are not in active ministry :

"I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism." -- 1 Timothy 5:21.

Paul's charge to Timothy is in view of the watching presence of God and angels. This inclusion of angels is significant because they are elsewhere described as having direct access to God's presence. Departed believers (OT or NT) are not mentioned here, since they of course are dead.

Another line of evidence that goes against the idea that the souls of the departed saints are in heaven is Paul's teaching on the resurrection.

"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'" -- 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the inherit the kingdom of God." But does death usher the believer into heaven? If this were the case, Paul should have said so. Instead, he points us to the resurrection. This surely means that those believers who have not been given their resurrected bodies cannot fully enjoy the presence of God in heaven. This will only be possible when Jesus returns and gives departed believers an imperishable bodily existence.

The Bible appears to teach that NT believers who die are in the same lot as OT believers. These two groups of people are described by Paul as "those who have fallen asleep in Christ." They are certainly NOT "fully enjoying the presence of God in heaven." In fact, Paul comforts living believers by stating that "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." He goes on to say that living believers "who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

These verses obviously teach that those who die ahead do not have much advantage (in term of full enjoyment of heaven) over those believers who are still alive. They await the resurrection at Jesus' return. Once they have been made alive again, living believers will be given spiritual bodies that are imperishable. It is then that all believers will enjoy the fullness of the communion of saints.

"These [OT saints] were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." -- Hebrews 11:39-40.

JESUS SPOKE WITH MOSES AND ELIJAH

The appearance of Moses and Elijah and their conversation with Jesus at His tranfiguration is considered by Catholic apologists to be part of the Biblical evidence that dead believers are "alive unto God." It is then argued that they hear our petitions and intercede for us before the Father.

The transfiguration of Jesus is recorded for us in Matthew 17:1-5, Mark 9:2-7 and Luke 9:28-36. In attendance was Peter, James and John. In this "vision" the Lord's "face shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light." Then Moses and Elijah "appeared in glorious splendor" and spoke with Jesus about his death. Peter then makes a rash statement about putting up three shelters - for Jesus, Moses and Elijah. The vision ends with a voice from the Father saying, "This is my Son whom I have chosen; listen to him."

Moses and Elijah are perhaps the two most popular OT prophets. Both of them had special visions of the glory of God (See Exodus 24:11 and 1 Kings 19:8). Moses died in a special way and was buried in an unknown grave by God himself. Elijah on the other hand was translated into "heaven" in a chariot of fire. There was widespread belief during the time of Jesus that Elijah was going to make a re-appearance before the endtimes.

It should be noted that this event was made a reality by the Lord himself. He who is the Resurrection and the Life could certainly "bring back" dead saints into a transient appearance with him on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Secondly, none of the three apostles present talked with Moses or Elijah. They simply saw them and heard their conversation with Jesus. While the vision was ongoing, Peter suggested the of making three shelters, perhaps to perpetuate the experience or to honor Moses and Elijah alongside Jesus. To this, Mark and Luke comment that Peter "did not know what he was saying." The Father then concludes the whole vision showing that what was needed was the presence of Jesus alone and attention to his voice: "This is my Son whom I have chosen: listen to him."

If this vision was to teach us about the intercession of the departed saints, Peter and his companions should be the best sources for this teaching. However, consistent with the explicit teaching of the Father, the apostles taught about Jesus. All the OT Scriptures - the Law represented by Moses and the Prophets represented by Elijah - bore witness to Jesus. He is the fulfillment, and the last and supreme Word (Hebrews 1:1-3).

Peter writes about the transfiguration in 2 Peter 1:16-18 :

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain."

For the apostle, the important lesson was the majesty of Jesus Christ. Moses and Elijah, and with them the rest of the prophets, pointed to Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. Jesus then confirmed the word of the prophets. We need to listen to Jesus. Peter certainly did not infer from his Mountain experience that departed saints, are alive and therefore continue the ministry of intercession in heaven.

"And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." -- 2 Peter 1:19-21.

"TO DIE IS GAIN"

I have shown above that OT saints remain dead and their perfection awaits our perfection. Like David, they have not ascended to heaven, even after Jesus' own resurrection and ascension. All believers await the blessed hope - the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What then do we do with passages that seem to teach that believers go to be with God the moment they die. The following are the most popular ones:

"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know; I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." -- Philippians 1:21-24.

"Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.'" -- Luke 23:42-43.

These passages should be interpreted without denying the obvious meaning of the various Scriptures cited previously. What then is the meaning of Paul's statements "to die is gain" and "to depart and be with Christ"? Are the dead in a conscious existence outside of the body?

The great majority of the passages mentioned in this essay lead me to believe that those who are asleep in Christ are either not conscious or are kept in a condition that permits no communion with the living. They most certainly are not in heaven. Perhaps Paul was saying that the believer who dies is now free from the "groanings of life on earth." The experience of being with Christ, while still future, is in fact the next stage of the Christian's experience. In this sense, therefore, "to die is to be with Christ."

An interesting harmonization has been suggested by the late Arthur C. Custance. (4) Without going into the details of this theory (based on a careful exegesis of many relevant Biblical texts about death and the final resurrection), Custance believed that those who die move into another sphere of existence altogether, where time as known on earth is irrelevant. Indeed those who die are immediately (by time reckoning in that other existence) ushered into the Lord's presence. Meanwhile on earth, those who have died await the final resurrection. Custance believed that in the final analysis, death ushers believers into heaven at the same time as the rest of the dead are raised to life at the resurrection.

CHRIST AND THE SPIRIT INTERCEDE FOR US

Our survey of the passages above should make it abundantly clear that while the concept of "the communion of the saints" is a Biblical concept, the specifically Catholic notion of the "intercession of the saints" has no basis in Scripture. The following outline more or less contains the summary of Biblical teaching: (a) There is no example anywhere in the Bible that illustrates petitioning the departed for their prayers; (b) the cloud of witnesses (prominent and not so prominent examples of triumphant faith) are described not in terms of present extra-terrestial ministry but rather in terms of past eartly ministry - when they were alive; (c) both OT and NT believers who have died have not ascended to heaven, their final glorification awaiting the general resurrection, when all who have believed will be raised to eternal life. While there are numerous exhortations to pray for one another, these need not go beyond relationships among living believers. The fullness of the communion of saints await the coming of Jesus Christ.

This Biblical 'limitation' to the present communion of saints need not be taken as a deficiency; rather we need to understand that God has indeed provided more than enough means for divine interecession on our behalf. Our first divine intercessor is Christ Himself. This function of Jesus is so well described for us especially in the book of Hebrews. A close examination of the relevant passages shows that in fact He alone (from among humans) qualifies and does the job perfectly - as our ever living High Priest.

Christ's qualification is elaborated for us by the following truths: (a) He is the radiance of God's glory, the exact representation of his being, since he himself is the Creator and sustainer of the universe (Heb. 1:2-3); (b) In order to be our high Priest, He had to share in our humanity, and to become like us in every way (except our sin - Heb. 4:15) , undergoing temptation and suffering (Heb. 2:14-18); (c) by His 'once for all' sacrifice of himself, he tasted death for us (Heb. 2:17), providing for us an atonement (Heb. 2:17) for the purification of our sins (Heb. 1:3), thus freeing us from the fear of death (Heb. 2:15) and cleansing our consciences (Heb. 9:14); (d) After his death, he sat down beside the Father in heaven (Heb. 8:2) where he lives forever, faithfully interceding for us; (e) all of the above qualifications have made Jesus the perfect Author of eternal salvation (for those who believe/obey him), our faithful and merciful high priest; (g) In view of this, believers have confident access to his throne of grace and mercy, receiving grace to help us in our weaknesses and our times of need.

Not only Christ intercedes in heaven for us, but the Holy Spirit Himself also intercedes for the saints. Romans 8:26-27 states :

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."

END NOTES

1. J.I. Packer, Growing in Christ (Illinois: Crossway Books, 1994), p. 76.

2. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, pp. 226-228. <ONLINE>

3. Alan Schreck, Catholic and Christian (Ann Arbor: Servant Publications, 1984), p. 157.

4. Arthur C. Custance, Journey Out of Time (Canada: Doorway Publications). <ONLINE>

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The author, Ernesto Florendo, can be reached at cheafrie@jetlink.com.ph
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All other correspondence should be e-mailed to thinkman@flash.net
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