Was The Holy Spirit Mary's Husband?

Jill
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Post by Jill » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:25 pm

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Last edited by Jill on Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Was The Holy Spirit Mary's Husband?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:13 pm

Hi, Jill,

(a) When I say that the word for "spirit" is feminine in Hebrew, this refers to a grammatical construct. In English, we have three gender constructs: masculine, feminine, and neuter. For the most part, these constructs are used in a way that reflects a subject's actual gender: as an example, from the same root we have "waiter" and "waitress," for masculine and feminine persons respectively. But sometimes we break this pattern: as an example, we sometimes refer to a boat as "she" (a feminine construct), even though the boat actually has no gender.

When we look beyond English, we find many languages that use masculine and feminine constructs for all or most subjects, including things that have no actual gender. In French, as an example, "table" follows a masculine construct and "automobile" folows a feminine construct. But different langauges will assign different gender constructs to different objects. As I indicated above, Jerome mentions the different constructs for the words for "spirit" in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek. In Latin, the word for "spirit" follows a masculine construct; and in Greek, the word for "spirit" follows a neuter construct. But in Hebrew, the word for "spirit" follows a feminine construct.

Because of this, it would be natural for some Hebrew-speakers to use feminine language about the holy spirit. To do so would not necessarily mean that they thought the spirit was actually female, but it would agree with the grammatical pattern of their language.

(b) Roman Catholics do not confuse the Virgin Mary - a human being - with the Holy Spirit. Knowledgeable Roman Catholics would not conceive of the holy spirit as having gender. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God."

(c) The ancient Hebrews probably conceived of God as male. There are no Hebrews now (though "Hebrew" was in some use several decades ago as a diplomatic term for Jewish people), but the Hebrew language is used by Jews in worship, and it is used as an everyday language in the country of Israel.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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selah
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Re: Was The Holy Spirit Mary's Husband?

Post by selah » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:40 pm

kaufmannphillips wrote: Jerome mentions the different constructs for the words for "spirit" in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek. In Latin, the word for "spirit" follows a masculine construct; and in Greek, the word for "spirit" follows a neuter construct. But in Hebrew, the word for "spirit" follows a feminine construct.

Because of this, it would be natural for some Hebrew-speakers to use feminine language about the holy spirit. To do so would not necessarily mean that they thought the spirit was actually female, but it would agree with the grammatical pattern of their language.
kaufmannphillips, thanks for explaining this. I knew the feminine, masculine, neuter principle applied to the Spanish language, but I know so very little about other languages. This is helpful to know when reading the original words used in the Bible (so I don't form incorrect conclusions).
kaufmannphillips wrote: (c) The ancient Hebrews probably conceived of God as male. There are no Hebrews now (though "Hebrew" was in some use several decades ago as a diplomatic term for Jewish people), but the Hebrew language is used by Jews in worship, and it is used as an everyday language in the country of Israel.
Really! I had been told that the ancient Hebrew language was extinct! I've always wanted to know more about the Hebrew language and then, when someone nicknamed me "Selah" (Some people outside of the forum know me by this name.) I looked it up and discovered that it means:
:arrow: "to pause and think on these things"
:arrow: or it was understood to mean "pause" in a musical phrase
:arrow: or some have said it means the same emphasis as "amen"

I guess this is off the topic of Mary and the Holy Spirit, but I just HAD to mention this because I am so interested in the Hebrew language.

Thank you,
SueAnn*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Was The Holy Spirit Mary's Husband?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:55 pm

Hi, selah!
selah wrote:
I knew the feminine, masculine, neuter principle applied to the Spanish language, but I know so very little about other languages. This is helpful to know when reading the original words used in the Bible (so I don't form incorrect conclusions).
I will mention that not every language has all three constructs. Hebrew and Aramaic have only masculine and feminine constructs, but Greek has all three.
selah wrote:
I had been told that the ancient Hebrew language was extinct! I've always wanted to know more about the Hebrew language...
The Hebrew used in Israel - Modern Hebrew - is somewhat different from Biblical Hebrew. And languages evolve over time, so people's understanding of Biblical Hebrew today probably does not correspond exactly to the understanding that its native speakers in ancient times would have had.

If you are interested in learning Biblical Hebrew sometime, let me know, and I am happy to teach it for free. I would extend the same offer to anybody in the Portland Metro area - and/or for Biblical Aramaic and/or Biblical Greek. (I would also work through Syriac, Akkadian, Ge'ez, Latin, and/or Avestan with somebody, if they have an unusual interest.)
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selah
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Re: Was The Holy Spirit Mary's Husband?

Post by selah » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:46 pm

kaufmannphillips wrote:Hi Selah!

If you are interested in learning Biblical Hebrew sometime, let me know, and I am happy to teach it for free. I would extend the same offer to anybody in the Portland Metro area - and/or for Biblical Aramaic and/or Biblical Greek. (I would also work through Syriac, Akkadian, Ge'ez, Latin, and/or Avestan with somebody, if they have an unusual interest.)
:shock: Wow! :D thank you kaufmannphillips! I will pray about this. Would it require drives north to Portland and if so, how often? Could I do it like a correspondence course, at least until I need to hear it spoken? (Actually, I may be more interested in Biblical Aramaic---at first. I have a lot of questions because Biblical Greek interests me too. I studied cultural anthropology and religion in college, and would that I could spend the rest of my life including the knowledge of these languages in the pursuit of more enlightened Truth.)

I will tell my daughter and see if she wants to learn it with me. She and I share a lot of spiritual investigation together. You are very generous to offer this free and I will pray to know how to bless you for this. Again, thank you... :)

In Jesus,
Selah*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Was The Holy Spirit Mary's Husband?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:36 pm

I would be flexible to work with your schedule, at your pace. It is really important with this sort of study to meet in person. Perhaps meeting every other week might work, and we could touch base by e-mail in between as you worked on things at home.

If my memory serves, you live in Silverton? I live in Vancouver. We could meet somewhere in between. I would be up for meeting in Mt. Angel on a Sunday afternoon.

I'd be thrilled to do Aramaic. So few people care about it, but it is an important language for biblical studies. I will say, though, that I have better material resources for starting with Hebrew, and there are probably better supplemental resources online for it, too. Once one learns Hebrew, following it with Aramaic is relatively easy. The two languages are quite similar.

Just drop a line if you (and your daughter, if she is interested) would like to have a go at one of the languages. I'd be happy to do something like this.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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