Hell and the Lake of Fire?

[Guest]

Greetings,
For my answer, look at my response "Intermediate state" to what happens when we die..it is another forum discussion, but aNswers this question and gives a little more detail on classic Hebrew and Oriental Orthodox Christian Cosmology.

Rev. Ken

[Guest]

Jc, we are supposed to be like minded and worship with one mouth and one heart, so what is your point here? All the things you all are saying are definitely not original, in your own words. Maybe you can type better than I. I see no reason to do so. Plus all the references made. I have fully investigated all pertinent material, and that is what I believe. Perhaps you are suggesting I do not parrot The Word Of God. I think JC wold disagree with you strongly. Amen.

[Guest]

JC,
I would say the Lord used Gehenna to describe what hell is like. As you may or may not know Gehenna was essentially the garbage dump of the city. At the time not only was garbage dumped there but also dead animals and criminals, plus it also had a fire going at all times. It was a real life visual cue for people to get a since of what hell is like. I can only imagine the impact of seeing a place like Gehenna and the Lord saying those who reject Him will spend eternity in such a place.

I would also say that Adams sin brought on physical death, but it took some time for sins corruption to work its way through our genes.

Jesusfollower what do these verses say to you as to who raised Jesus?

Son - "Jesus answered and said to them, John 2:19-21 "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body,"

Father - Gal. 1:1 "Paul, an apostle (not sent from men, nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),".

The Holy Spirit - Rom. 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you,"

It would appear that the entire Godhead was involved, ooops there is that darn trinity thing again

Jim

[Guest]

I would say the Lord used Gehenna to describe what hell is like. As you may or may not know Gehenna was essentially the garbage dump of the city. At the time not only was garbage dumped there but also dead animals and criminals, plus it also had a fire going at all times. It was a real life visual cue for people to get a since of what hell is like. I can only imagine the impact of seeing a place like Gehenna and the Lord saying those who reject Him will spend eternity in such a place.

Gehenna was a real place known to the Pharisees whom Jesus was speaking to and Jesus knew their view of Gehenna. They did not believe it to be a place of eternal torment so if Jesus was changing the view from perishing to eternal torment He would have said "BUT I SAY TO YOU" but he did'nt. This is the phrase he used when he initiating a new law which he had the authority to do but on these encounters with the Pharisees he never did that nor did they understand him to be implying anything different then their understanding because they never questioned him about eternal torment. The Apostles who had their understanding of the scriptures opened up by Jesus (Luke 24.45) never spoke of eternal torment only of perishing .
However the RCC jumped on the opportunity to initiate the threat of eternal torment in their teachings and thus gave another one of their gifts to Christianity.

[Guest]

STEVE7150,

I apologize steve, I was meaning that Gehenna was a visual discription but when I take in everything else written in the NT and OT I get the impression its permanent life without God in a place much like Gehenna.

As for Rev 22:17 it appears to me that statement is for those in this world now, saying to those not of Christ listen to the spirit and the bride before its to late, and not something that will occur after the judgment. What I mean by now is we take in the Spirit, we drink of the spirit, which is Life. It to me is very symbolic.

Jim

[Guest]

Gehenna was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem, it was always burning, but no one though it preserved things, it other words it was always burning because people were always throwing new fuel in. And that is were the criminals bodies were thrown also. If it was not for Joseph that is were Jesus body would have been put. Check out Psalms.

[Guest]

Jesusfollower what do these verses say to you as to who raised Jesus?

Son - "Jesus answered and said to them, John 2:19-21 "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body,"

Father - Gal. 1:1 "Paul, an apostle (not sent from men, nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),".

The Holy Spirit - Rom. 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you,"

I'm not JF, but I'd like to respond.
The total testimony of scripture is that the Father raised Jesus from the dead.

Jesus didn't raise Himself. How could He? He was dead.

Jesus' words "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up," were prophetic. It was the Father speaking through Him.

The words you quoted in Rom 8 do not state that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. The words are "He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead [the Father] will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit [that is, Himself. God is Spirit] who dwells in you.

Read the first part again. It doesn't state that the Spirit raised Jesus either.

[Guest]

John 21:19-21.
Jesus was responsible to keep himself sinless therefore he was responsible for his resurrection. Not the act of resurrection.

[Guest]

Interesting discussion!

Jesus' words "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up," were prophetic. It was the Father speaking through Him.

How could you make this claim? The natural reading of the text doesn't give any indication that Jesus was not referring to himself when he said "...and in three days I will raise it up". Your claim is possible, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that "I" in verse 19 was the Father and not Jesus.

Can you further explain?

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:
Jesus' words "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up," were prophetic. It was the Father speaking through Him.

How could you make this claim? The natural reading of the text doesn't give any indication that Jesus was not referring to himself when he said "...and in three days I will raise it up". Your claim is possible, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that "I" in verse 19 was the Father and not Jesus.

Can you further explain?

Yes, Schoel. I agree that from the natural reading of the text, one would assume that Jesus said that He would raise Himself from the dead.

I make the claim that the Father was speaking through Jesus, not because the text says so, but for the following reasons:

1. No other text in the entire New Testament affirms that Jesus raised Himself from the dead. Many state that the Father raised Him. Others state that He "was raised" or in King James language He "is risen". Some incorrectly say He "has risen" as if He had raised Himself. But there is a great difference in meaning between the two, just as there is a great difference in meaning between the statement, "The dog has eaten" and "The dog is eaten". In the latter case, the dog does not perform the act of eating, he is the recipient of the act!

Some passages say "He arose" but that doesn't necessarily indicate
that He raised Himself. It is also stated of us who are disciples, that we "shall rise" from the dead.

2. From what I understand from scripture in general about the state of the dead, I believe that everyone who dies is truly dead, and is without conscious existence until his resurrection. I believe this to have been true even of Jesus. Obviously Jesus didn't go to heaven at death. After His resurrection, He stated, "I have not yet ascended to my Father...."
So if Jesus truly died, He could not have raised Himself anymore than any one of us could raise himself.

Someone might object that He could raise Himself since He is God. Yes, He was truly Deity, but He divested Himself of all His divine characterstics when He became man. Philippians 2:7. He retained only His identity as the Son of God

The thing that amazes me, is that of all the hymns about the resurrection which I have encountered none state that the Father raised Jesus, in spite of the many scriptures which affirm this to be the case.