Hell and the Lake of Fire?

Post by **_AARONDISNEY** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:11 pm

I was thinking about this the other day...I know that hell (according to the story of Lazarus and the rich man) must be a place of flames and heat, because the rich man wanted lazarus to cool his tongue, because he was being tormented in the flames....That was hell....

Then we read in Revelation that death and hell will be cast into the "lake of fire"--by it's name alone it seems to say it will be a place similar to the description of where the rich man went.

Does anyone know of the distinctions between the two places? Is one hot and the other hotter or something?

Post by **_mattrose** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:26 pm

There are numerous difficulties wrapped around your question...

1. The story of the rich man and lazarus is very controversial because some people feel it is simply a parable (and not to be taken as a literal illustration of the afterlife) and others feel Jesus was referencing an actual historical event.

2. Even IF one accepts the description of the afterlife as accurate, it still doesn't necessarily speak to the issue of 'hell' for reasons stated below.

3. As far as I know, the use of the term 'hell' in english translations is a bit arbitrary and misleading. Some translations use the term 'hell' for a hebrew or greek word that simply meant 'the grave'. Perhaps the only place the word 'hell' could be used with some degree of accuracy is when the Scriptures reference the 'lake of fire'

4. Now I will explain my beliefs....which could be very wrong

First, I believe that when people died in OT times, their bodies went to the grave and their soul went to a place called hades. Hades was made of 2 compartments. The first compartment was called Abraham's side and held those who died in faith. The second compartment was a place of torment and agony.

Second, I believe that the cross changed point 1. At the time of the cross, all those at Abraham's side were given access to God's presence. Thus, compartment #1 was transferred to heaven. Compartment #2, I guess, stayed in Hades. So Hades was now made up of only the wicked.

Third, I believe that, since the cross, when a believer dies, his or her soul goes straight to heaven. When an unbeliever dies his or her soul goes straight to Hades.

Fourth, I believe that on judgment day, all righteous people throughout history will be given glorified bodies and live forever with God in the New Heavens and Earth. I am undecided regarded the fate of all the wicked people (eternal torment, annihilationism, universalism).

Fifth, in Revelation 20:14, which you mention...it is death and Hades (which had been holding the wicked) that are thrown into the lake of fire (hell?)
..........

Like I said, I'm not sure the Bible says enough for anyone to be extremely confident on these issues. But this is my current understanding.

Post by **_AARONDISNEY** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:34 pm

Thanks Matt,
I had always taken the story of Lazarus to be an actual story. Parables usually consisted of applications being made to make a point. That story seemed to just be making a point without the use of symbols. I could be wrong on that point as well. If it is true, it seems that hades is a place that is torment and flames, which will be transferred to another place of eternal torment and flames (maybe to a greater degree).

Not that it matters, I'm not planning on finding out first hand. I was just wondering if it was a case out out of the frying pan into the fire (to the billionth degree) or whatever.

Thanks again

Aaron

Post by **_brody_in_ga** » Mon May 22, 2006 1:39 pm

Please allow me to add something if you will. Though I believe in the doctrine of eternal punishment, I will admit that the bible isn't as clear on it as one could hope. I can say for sure that I reject the universalist position, as it(to me)has no support in scripture. In any event, I am not going there to find out.

.

I used to wonder why God would take someone out of hell just to send them back there. Then something occured to me. Lets say you went out and broke the law, you would be jailed until your court date(depending on the crime). Lets just say that you convienced yourself that you are innocent while incarcerated. Your day of reckoning would come on the day that you stand before the judge. To put it this way, there are probably some who are in hell at this moment thinking they do not deserve such. And when they stand before God at the white throne judgment, they will understand there sentence.

As for the verse in Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I have always understood this to be speaking of the "function" of death and hell. When Christ returns, death and hell will have come to an end, functionally(is that a word?) speaking. There job is complete.

Just my 2 cents.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:46 pm

I had always taken the story of Lazarus to be an actual story. Parables usually consisted of applications being made to make a point. That story seemed to just be making a point without the use of symbols. I could be wrong on that point as well. If it is true, it seems that hades is a place that is torment and flames, which will be transferred to another place of eternal torment and flames (maybe to a greater degree).

Hi Aaron, There is a thread on this page called alternative views of hell you might be interested in. Abraham's bosum is not a biblical term but it was a rabbinical tradition and i believe Jesus used it to talk about the jewish nation looking to Father Abraham for salvation and never finding it through him. IMHO this is a prophecy and has nothing to do with hell. We have a flame but no fire which indicates light of the knowledge of Christ. The Lake of Fire is the only thing IMO resembling hell and after unbelievers are thrown into it scripture never says they are tortured or tormented and in fact Rev 22.17 finds the Spirit and the Bride inviting whosoever to drink from the water of life.

Post by **_JC** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:44 am

The lake of fire is a difficult doctrine to pin down for a number of reasons. We are told that death and hades are thrown into this lake of fire, which suggests to me that it's not a literal thing but some kind of final judgement. God is called a consuming fire in the scriptures and John the Baptist said Jesus would judge with fire as well. Fire and the like always seem to speak of judgement, not necessarily the punishment itself.

One of the reasons I'm undecided on the fate of the wicked is because the bible seems to indicate different levels of punishment and reward. Jesus said the slave who didn't know his master's rules would be beaten with fewer blows and also said certain cities would be judged more harshly than others on the day of judgement. It's also entirely possible that all three of the positions on hell are correct to some degree. God may annihilate some, purge less serious offenders and seperate others from himself. This is similar to how criminals are handled in our courts today. The exception being that God judges perfectly and we do not. I don't really understand the "all or nothing" mentality when it comes to this issue. My understanding of scripture is that God takes each man's works into account on the day of judgement and not all works are equal.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:57 am

One of the reasons I'm undecided on the fate of the wicked is because the bible seems to indicate different levels of punishment and reward. Jesus said the slave who didn't know his master's rules would be beaten with fewer blows and also said certain cities would be judged more harshly than others on the day of judgement. It's also entirely possible that all three of the positions on hell are correct to some degree. God may annihilate some, purge less serious offenders and seperate others from himself. This is similar to how criminals are handled in our courts today. The exception being that God judges perfectly and we do not. I don't really understand the "all or nothing" mentality when it comes to this issue. My understanding of scripture is that God takes each man's works into account on the day of judgement and not all works are equal.

That's an interesting take JC and maybe you're right, however even the servent who was beaten with many blows was'nt beaten eternally. Even many blows ends at some point.

Post by **_JC** » Wed May 24, 2006 2:38 pm

Hi, Steve.... would you consider yourself a universalist? In your opinion, what is the second death and why is it labeled such? This seems to indicate an extinction of personhood. The reason I say this is because the opposite of death is life and Jesus said believers have eternal life. So wouldn't that mean unbelievers don't have eternal life? I know the Greek word for eternal actually means "age abiding" so let's not contrast eternal life with eternal punishment. Instead, let's contrast life with death, since these are less ambiguous terms in scripture. If believers are given life, then what are unbelievers given?

Post by **_loaves** » Wed May 24, 2006 3:06 pm

JC wrote:Hi, Steve.... would you consider yourself a universalist? In your opinion, what is the second death and why is it labeled such?

To me, the "Second Death" has finality in it's connotation. As far as sequences go, and according to Revelation, people never experience a kind of "third birth" after they go into the second death (whatever that constitutes). In other words, I never see people somehow escaping from the "second death."

My two cents.

JC: Looks like you've got a wonderful family!

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:38 pm

Hi, Steve.... would you consider yourself a universalist? In your opinion, what is the second death and why is it labeled such? This seems to indicate an extinction of personhood. The reason I say this is because the opposite of death is life and Jesus said believers have eternal life. So wouldn't that mean unbelievers don't have eternal life? I know the Greek word for eternal actually means "age abiding" so let's not contrast eternal life with eternal punishment. Instead, let's contrast life with death, since these are less ambiguous terms in scripture. If believers are given life, then what are unbelievers given?

Hi JC, As you know unbelievers get resurrected to judgement (John 5.29) but the greek word "krisis" does not mean conviction it means judgement and the english word "crisis" comes from this greek word and sometimes out a crisis can come a good ending. And in 1st Tim it says the gospel will be preached to everyone "in due time" therefore i'm not a universalist but i believe everyone gets a fair opportunity even if it's in the lake of fire. Eternal life is conditional on making Christ our Lord so at some point in the LOF unbelievers perish IMO. The second death is after the resurrection unbelievers are sent to the LOF where some of them will die a second and final time.