Hell and the Lake of Fire?

[Guest]

One of the reasons I'm undecided on the fate of the wicked is because the bible seems to indicate different levels of punishment and reward. Jesus said the slave who didn't know his master's rules would be beaten with fewer blows and also said certain cities would be judged more harshly than others on the day of judgement. It's also entirely possible that all three of the positions on hell are correct to some degree. God may annihilate some, purge less serious offenders and seperate others from himself. This is similar to how criminals are handled in our courts today. The exception being that God judges perfectly and we do not. I don't really understand the "all or nothing" mentality when it comes to this issue. My understanding of scripture is that God takes each man's works into account on the day of judgement and not all works are equal.

Doesn't Jesus contradict the different levels of punishment based on what type of sin commited in Matthew 5?

21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'

22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Later on in the same passage it appears that your own thoughts condemn you through lust. It also seems that all are condemn to the same fate who don't believe in Christ. The goats aren't shown to be separated and appear to all receive the same punishment.

[Guest]

22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

I think it's important to keep in mind that the word translated as "hell" is "gehenna" which is a word from the OT that never was understood to mean eternal torment until the RCC translated it that way and then it became an ingrained doctrine in mainstream Christianity.

[Guest]

22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

I think it's important to keep in mind that the word translated as "hell" is "gehenna" which is a word from the OT that never was understood to mean eternal torment until the RCC translated it that way and then it became an ingrained doctrine in mainstream Christianity.

I don't disagree that there is a dispute over what the punishment will be, I was more questioning the different levels of punishment in the afterlife based on degree of sin. I don't think the Bible supports that unless of course someone can convince me otherwise with scripture.

[Guest]

loaves, thanks for the kind words.

Micha, I think it's important to consider the whole counsel of scripture on a given subject and the bible teaches us throughout that God is just. But what does God consider justice? Well, a quick look through the law of Moses tells us God considers justice to be giving a criminal a punishment equal to his crime. Elsewhere we read of Jesus talking about "stricter judgements" and illustrating this in parables.

In Matthew 5-7 we are given a sermon (or a series of sermons) by Jesus on how to live a life that's pleasing to God. He's not giving a discourse in 5:21-22 on the fate of unbelievers, but rather how offensive sin is to God. The reason I know that is because he doesn't even mention unbelievers in those passages.

STEVE7150, I think I understand what you're saying. But in my mind, scripture teaches us that life is a test and we are rewarded or punished based on that test. If a sinner dies in unbelief, for him to be given another chance would seem to make our "testing ground" rather insignificant. I could see this being the case for people who died before hearing the gospel (but would've responded to it) and innocent children. But for fully grown, competent adults to willingly reject the gospel would be entirely different. Wouldn't you say these people have already sealed their fate?

[Guest]

Micha, I think it's important to consider the whole counsel of scripture on a given subject and the bible teaches us throughout that God is just. But what does God consider justice? Well, a quick look through the law of Moses tells us God considers justice to be giving a criminal a punishment equal to his crime. Elsewhere we read of Jesus talking about "stricter judgements" and illustrating this in parables.

In Matthew 5-7 we are given a sermon (or a series of sermons) by Jesus on how to live a life that's pleasing to God. He's not giving a discourse in 5:21-22 on the fate of unbelievers, but rather how offensive sin is to God. The reason I know that is because he doesn't even mention unbelievers in those passages.

I don't discount the fact that there a different levels of judgement while we are here on earth that seem to fit the crime. However, it seems to me that to God "sin" is "sin" and there is no distinction of unbelief, therefore the crime is all the same and the punishment should be the same for all.

[Guest]

However, it seems to me that to God "sin" is "sin" and there is no distinction of unbelief, therefore the crime is all the same and the punishment should be the same for all.

Is it really true, as so many say, that to God "sin is sin" and "the crime is all the same"? Are all sins the same in God's eyes? In my opinion, this view trivializes more serious sin.

If this view were true, then what did Jesus mean when He said, "...he who delivered me to you has the greater sin"? John 19:11

Jesus is Deity, and He indicated that Judas' sin in turning Him in, was greater than that of Pilate who executed the judgment.

I think it is obvious to all of us that some sins are greater than others.
Whom would you rather have living next door to you, a practising liar, or a practising murderer?

Jesus, in His parable, spoke of three classes of slaves, one of whom was beaten with few blows, one of whom was beaten with many blows, and a third who was cast into outer darkness. I don't think He was referring to punishments executed in this life.

[Guest]

I don't discount the fact that there a different levels of judgement while we are here on earth that seem to fit the crime. However, it seems to me that to God "sin" is "sin" and there is no distinction of unbelief, therefore the crime is all the same and the punishment should be the same for all.

Here are two scriptrures that seem to indicate that the punishment for those who were sanctified is worse than those who were never saved.

Heb 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Pet 2:20-23
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Todd

[Guest]

STEVE7150, I think I understand what you're saying. But in my mind, scripture teaches us that life is a test and we are rewarded or punished based on that test. If a sinner dies in unbelief, for him to be given another chance would seem to make our "testing ground" rather insignificant. I could see this being the case for people who died before hearing the gospel (but would've responded to it) and innocent children. But for fully grown, competent adults to willingly reject the gospel would be entirely different. Wouldn't you say these people have already sealed their fate?


JC, Perhaps you're right about people who reject the gospel because they hate God but there are a myriad of other factors. Firstly until the printing press there were virtually no bibles available, and for 400 years afterward most people in the world were illiterate. So until the 1800s the only gospel even available was the one preached through a church which usually was a corrupted version by the RCC.
What if you were brought up in an atheistic family or a muslim family or hindu or buddhist or jewish or communist or countless other backrounds and never had a legitimate opportunity to understand who Christ is and why he did what he did.
Is salvation subject to the vagaries of being born into the right family or running into the right people?
In Rev 20 it says the dead are raised and "the books are opened" , IMO these are not books of our works but these books are the gospels as described in Isaiah 19 i believe, and for the first time most people will "see" with their spiritual eyes.
As far as this life being an insignificant testing ground if people can be saved on the other side i would have to disagree. The main lesson we need to learn here is where sin leads, and how to overcome through Christ, and how much we need God and that he loves us. That's pretty important stuff.

[Guest]

Is it really true, as so many say, that to God "sin is sin" and "the crime is all the same"? Are all sins the same in God's eyes? In my opinion, this view trivializes more serious sin.

If this view were true, then what did Jesus mean when He said, "...he who delivered me to you has the greater sin"? John 19:11

I'm not disputing the fact that Jesus pointed out certain sins in this life as having greater consequences than others, but I think he also made it clear that even trivial sins can end you up in hell. In your opinion what is the greater sin...just thinking lustful thoughts about another women only or acting on those thoughts and committing adultery?

Did Jesus say to the men who were ready to cast stones, that the one with the lesser sins committed can cast the first stone?

Could it be that Jesus was referring to the passages that Father of Five quoted as Judas's sin being the greater sin? Meaning that if you had the knowledge of Jesus Christ in your grasp, than turned away from the faith, that the after life is going to be that much worse for you. Knowing that you turned away from the truth that could have saved you from hell.

Also, why is one act of righteousness a cure for all sins committed, but yet if one does not accept Christ they are subjected to a different punishment based on what was committed? Also, when the sheep and the goats are separated, the goats aren't shown to be further separated based on level of sin committed. They all go to the same place.

[Guest]

Micah,

This is the thing that makes the judgment hard for me to understand. On the one hand we have the sheep and the goats where the judgment appears to be binary (2 groups, one or the other). On the other hand, we seem to have passages that indicate some continuous scale such as:

Mt 5:19 - Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Lk 12:46-48 - The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

I see in these passages and others gradients of reward and punishment. I agree with you that all sin disqualifies us for any claim we might have on eternal life outside of Christ, so in that sense all sin is the same. But I think the effect on us, both in this age and in the age to come, may vary from sin to sin. I just don’t know enough about the nature of the afterlife to be able to understand how this could be. Could my experience of heaven be better or worse than your experience? Could one person’s “weeping and gnashing of teeth” be worse than another’s?

I’m still working this one out, so feel free to weigh in everyone.