Much has been posted recently regarding this subject. Many questions come to mind that should be answerable if universalism is biblical. I would be most interested in answers to the following:
1. It has been claimed that the Church came up with the doctrine of eternal punishment, yet we find much of what Jesus said would have left that impression on His hearers, such as the parables of "the rich man and Lazarus", "the unmerciful servant", and "the sheep and the goats", &c. Jesus plainly warned of when and how eternal punishment would begin but never gave a hint of when or how it might end. How was the Church guilty of misleading people any more than Jesus if universalism is true?
2. Not considering for the moment those who have never heard of Jesus, how will those who rejected Him in this life come to love Him while enduring the horrible fate of the lost, without being forced to do so by their circumstances? Forced love is no love at all. How are we to believe they would repent absent the compulsion of their suffering?
3. If the purpose of hell is for correction, what if Hitler at judgement day is cast into "outer darkness" (hell if you prefer) and promptly confesses Jesus as Lord, says he is sorry for all he did and promises to do better; will he immediately go to heaven? Upon your theory of correction, why or why not? Is he not corrected? And if a good moral man who helped people, was kind, but nevertheless a staunch atheist does not confess Jesus will he stay in hell while Hitler is in heaven?
4. If a benevolent God can cast a man into hell for 1000 years, why not 10,000 or 100,000, or ad infinitum? When, in your mind, is the limit, or is there any?
5. If God cannot allow the wicked to suffer endlessly, how can he allow those who love Him to suffer so terribly in this life?
6. What will be preached to those in hell who have heard and rejected the gospel? A different gospel? The Holy Spirit seems to have never saved a soul apart from the gospel. "The gospel is the power unto salvation". Who will preach what and when?
It is most interesting to note that the universalist seems to be the polar opposite of the Calvinist. The Calvinist will have no problem consigning non-elect infants and children who die to eternal punishment, while the universalist denies there is eternal punishment for anyone. Interesting!
I must say I will not speculate on the fate of those who never have heard of Jesus. I believe God is just and I am confident He will do what is right. "Mercy overcomes judgement".
Whatever is true is agreeable with me, for God is truth.
I eagerly await your response(s).
Blessings, Homer
Questions regarding Universalism
Questions regarding Universalism
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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A Berean
First of all, I would like to restate that I do not claim to be a universalist. However, I have done some reading on it so I will take a stab at answering some of your questions.
Before I get started, my viewpoint is that we would all be best served if we as Christians were not so insistent on teaching as doctrine things unless the Bible is very clear on them. From my own personal experience I know of the great torment I went through as a little child after hearing the doctrine of eternal conscious torment preached. There were many nights I lay in bed as a small child pleading with God to not let me die, to please forgive me of my sins, to not let me be tormented forever. Very, very scary.
You say that Jesus did not hint at an end to punishment. To me this seems very different than explicitly saying that there is no end to torment. You ask the question (stating as a premise) "if universalism is true", how is the church guilty of misleading people more than Jesus.
Well, if universalism is true, and the church says that it isn't, but that torment in hell never ends, this is "more misleading" because Jesus didn't say it would never end.
But I think that is a technical answer, rather than getting to the spirit of your question. I think you are saying that Jesus *implied* that the punishment was never ending, or at least that that is how the people listening would have heard it.
I am not sure that is true. But since I was not there, I cannot say for sure. I know that my own brain has been programmed from childhood to read "hell", with all that goes with that word, when I here certain passages that speak of wailing and gnashing of teeth, or being cast into outer darkness, or being cast into the lake of fire, etc, etc....
But what would the people of the first century have thought when they heard these words? Can you say for sure? When I try to deprogram my brain and read the old testament without hearing "hell" when I read Sheol, or the grave, etc, I come away with an impression that hell was not taught in these books.
So when Jesus used words like Gehenna, which WAS spoken of in the OT to speak of a place where dead bodies were going to be burned when Jerusalem was to be judged, maybe the people thought He was referring to the valley outside of Jerusalem (and maybe they were right).
Much has been said in other threads about Luke 16 and Matt. 25. I will let you review those if you want to see ways of looking at the Rich Man and Lazarus and the Sheep/Goats parables. You brought up another one. The Unmerciful Servant...
What would a first century hearer have thought of Jesus telling this story?
Perhaps they would have thought that when the kingdom came, that God through the Christ would judge people based on how they treated others. Doesn’t much of the Bible indicate that God will show mercy to the merciful, forgiveness to those who forgive, that with the same measure we use to apportion grace, God will use when He apportions to us?
My understanding of what the first century people were expecting was an actual physical kingdom to come when the Messiah arrived. That He would reign on David’s physical throne and would deliver Israel from her oppressors. Perhaps the idea of eternal conscious torment in a place called hell would not have occurred to them.
They had examples of God’s judgment prophesied in the OT, where language was used such as smoke ascending up forever, burning of corpses in the valley of Hinnom, unquenchable fire, etc. They had seen the fulfillment of these prophecies. Maybe they were more used to this type of language than we are. Is it possible?
Anyway, what has been my goal and continues to this day, is to try to learn to read the Bible without all the programming that has come with my upbringing, to read the Bible again “for the first time.” It’s not easy.
).
I would imagine people, finding that they had rejected the truth throughout their lives, seeing the waste, how they had hurt people, would have to deal with the same kind pain and anguish I did. I did not turn to Christ because I was forced, I turned to Him because I thought He was the right answer. I turned to Him because I thought His way might be better than my way.
I find it hard to imagine a good, moral “atheist” in the judgment. With God standing in front of him do you think this good person would still reject the truth? Hard for me to imagine.
).
If the purpose of sending someone to hell is for retribution, I cannot imagine a mortal human committing so much sin that it would take several lifetimes to make right, let alone eternity. But that is just my sense of justice. I must admit to being very biased here. I trust God knows what is right. I just believe that the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death. Those who murder in this life, face a human judge with the potential of the death penalty. That is true whether you murder 1 person or 10,000. The maximum penalty we can bestow is death. Perhaps it is the same way with God...
You spoke in a previous post of the tenor of the Bible. To me, the whole Bible over and over again states this truth: You sin, you die. Why would God have misled people for centuries by telling them that they would die if they sinned, offered them life if they repented, and then at the judgment say ‘Sorry, when I said death, I meant eternal life in a lake of fire without the possibility of parole.”
Are you suggesting that the fact that innocent suffer in this life is proof that the wicked must suffer endlessly? I suspect I am not reading your question correctly, sorry.
I believe God is going to make all things right. Do you think the person who suffered in this life will feel cheated unless the persons who caused their suffering are tormented eternally?
When we who are followers of Christ complete the process of becoming like Him, will we not also want God to forgive those who caused us to suffer, much as Christ wanted of those who crucified Him? Anyway, that is how I look at it.
I grow tired of writing, and communicating is not one of my skills, but I wanted to take a shot at some of your questions. I know that Steve Gregg is teaching Friday night in McMinnville, Oregon on the topic of the 3 views of hell. Perhaps the teaching can be recorded and posted on his web-site. I am sure he will cover many of the types of questions you want answered. (And he does such a better job at expressing himself!)
Blessings to you, Homer!
Mike
Before I get started, my viewpoint is that we would all be best served if we as Christians were not so insistent on teaching as doctrine things unless the Bible is very clear on them. From my own personal experience I know of the great torment I went through as a little child after hearing the doctrine of eternal conscious torment preached. There were many nights I lay in bed as a small child pleading with God to not let me die, to please forgive me of my sins, to not let me be tormented forever. Very, very scary.
1. It has been claimed that the Church came up with the doctrine of eternal punishment, yet we find much of what Jesus said would have left that impression on His hearers, such as the parables of "the rich man and Lazarus", "the unmerciful servant", and "the sheep and the goats", &c. Jesus plainly warned of when and how eternal punishment would begin but never gave a hint of when or how it might end. How was the Church guilty of misleading people any more than Jesus if universalism is true?
You say that Jesus did not hint at an end to punishment. To me this seems very different than explicitly saying that there is no end to torment. You ask the question (stating as a premise) "if universalism is true", how is the church guilty of misleading people more than Jesus.
Well, if universalism is true, and the church says that it isn't, but that torment in hell never ends, this is "more misleading" because Jesus didn't say it would never end.
But I think that is a technical answer, rather than getting to the spirit of your question. I think you are saying that Jesus *implied* that the punishment was never ending, or at least that that is how the people listening would have heard it.
I am not sure that is true. But since I was not there, I cannot say for sure. I know that my own brain has been programmed from childhood to read "hell", with all that goes with that word, when I here certain passages that speak of wailing and gnashing of teeth, or being cast into outer darkness, or being cast into the lake of fire, etc, etc....
But what would the people of the first century have thought when they heard these words? Can you say for sure? When I try to deprogram my brain and read the old testament without hearing "hell" when I read Sheol, or the grave, etc, I come away with an impression that hell was not taught in these books.
So when Jesus used words like Gehenna, which WAS spoken of in the OT to speak of a place where dead bodies were going to be burned when Jerusalem was to be judged, maybe the people thought He was referring to the valley outside of Jerusalem (and maybe they were right).
Much has been said in other threads about Luke 16 and Matt. 25. I will let you review those if you want to see ways of looking at the Rich Man and Lazarus and the Sheep/Goats parables. You brought up another one. The Unmerciful Servant...
What would a first century hearer have thought of Jesus telling this story?
Perhaps they would have thought that when the kingdom came, that God through the Christ would judge people based on how they treated others. Doesn’t much of the Bible indicate that God will show mercy to the merciful, forgiveness to those who forgive, that with the same measure we use to apportion grace, God will use when He apportions to us?
My understanding of what the first century people were expecting was an actual physical kingdom to come when the Messiah arrived. That He would reign on David’s physical throne and would deliver Israel from her oppressors. Perhaps the idea of eternal conscious torment in a place called hell would not have occurred to them.
They had examples of God’s judgment prophesied in the OT, where language was used such as smoke ascending up forever, burning of corpses in the valley of Hinnom, unquenchable fire, etc. They had seen the fulfillment of these prophecies. Maybe they were more used to this type of language than we are. Is it possible?
Anyway, what has been my goal and continues to this day, is to try to learn to read the Bible without all the programming that has come with my upbringing, to read the Bible again “for the first time.” It’s not easy.
This is a very interesting question. I have considered this a lot. Since the Bible does not answer this question, I can only speculate. What I imagine is that people turning to Christ after they die will do so in ways similar to how I did it in this life. I rejected Christ for many years. I believe one of the main reasons I rejected Christ was that I did not like Him. I used examples of the pain He allowed innocent people in this life, and the idea of eternally punishing people for rejecting Him (or even for never having heard of Him). "How could one love such a God?", I thought. So I lived my life the way I wanted to. As one would expect, my life crashed and burned. Living my life without God, according to my own rules didn’t bring me the happiness I wanted/expected. It brought me pain, anguish, bitterness, frustration, etc. It came to the point where I started looking for answers that could only be found in God. I decided to give His way a chance ( as a last resort2. Not considering for the moment those who have never heard of Jesus, how will those who rejected Him in this life come to love Him while enduring the horrible fate of the lost, without being forced to do so by their circumstances? Forced love is no love at all. How are we to believe they would repent absent the compulsion of their suffering?
).I would imagine people, finding that they had rejected the truth throughout their lives, seeing the waste, how they had hurt people, would have to deal with the same kind pain and anguish I did. I did not turn to Christ because I was forced, I turned to Him because I thought He was the right answer. I turned to Him because I thought His way might be better than my way.
Fortunately God will be the judge, not me. He will know if Hitler is truly corrected or not. But I think there is more to the story than just “confessing” Jesus as Lord. The Bible warns that a simple confession of “Lord, Lord”, is not enough in this life. Why would it be enough in the next? Perhaps Hitler will actually have to demonstrate faith. I expect even those of us who have surrendered to Christ in this life, but have not dealt with all of our sin issues, will find some unpleasantness when we have to deal with them at the judgment. We will all be judged according to our works, and our works will be tested with fire (1 Cor. 3). I am not sure exactly what process we must all go through to purify us for dwelling with the Lord, to rid ourselves of self. But to the extent we fail to do so in this life, perhaps there is a refining process at the judgment.3. If the purpose of hell is for correction, what if Hitler at judgment day is cast into "outer darkness" (hell if you prefer) and promptly confesses Jesus as Lord, says he is sorry for all he did and promises to do better; will he immediately go to heaven? Upon your theory of correction, why or why not? Is he not corrected? And if a good moral man who helped people, was kind, but nevertheless a staunch atheist does not confess Jesus will he stay in hell while Hitler is in heaven?
I find it hard to imagine a good, moral “atheist” in the judgment. With God standing in front of him do you think this good person would still reject the truth? Hard for me to imagine.
If the purpose of sending someone to hell is for correction, the duration would be until the person is corrected (not measured in years, but in percentage corrected4. If a benevolent God can cast a man into hell for 1000 years, why not 10,000 or 100,000, or ad infinitum? When, in your mind, is the limit, or is there any?
).If the purpose of sending someone to hell is for retribution, I cannot imagine a mortal human committing so much sin that it would take several lifetimes to make right, let alone eternity. But that is just my sense of justice. I must admit to being very biased here. I trust God knows what is right. I just believe that the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death. Those who murder in this life, face a human judge with the potential of the death penalty. That is true whether you murder 1 person or 10,000. The maximum penalty we can bestow is death. Perhaps it is the same way with God...
You spoke in a previous post of the tenor of the Bible. To me, the whole Bible over and over again states this truth: You sin, you die. Why would God have misled people for centuries by telling them that they would die if they sinned, offered them life if they repented, and then at the judgment say ‘Sorry, when I said death, I meant eternal life in a lake of fire without the possibility of parole.”
It is not a question of what God can allow, is it?5. If God cannot allow the wicked to suffer endlessly, how can he allow those who love Him to suffer so terribly in this life?
Are you suggesting that the fact that innocent suffer in this life is proof that the wicked must suffer endlessly? I suspect I am not reading your question correctly, sorry.
I believe God is going to make all things right. Do you think the person who suffered in this life will feel cheated unless the persons who caused their suffering are tormented eternally?
When we who are followers of Christ complete the process of becoming like Him, will we not also want God to forgive those who caused us to suffer, much as Christ wanted of those who crucified Him? Anyway, that is how I look at it.
I do not know the answer to the question “who will preach, and when?” but I cannot imagine the gospel being different.6. What will be preached to those in hell who have heard and rejected the gospel? A different gospel? The Holy Spirit seems to have never saved a soul apart from the gospel. "The gospel is the power unto salvation". Who will preach what and when?
I grow tired of writing, and communicating is not one of my skills, but I wanted to take a shot at some of your questions. I know that Steve Gregg is teaching Friday night in McMinnville, Oregon on the topic of the 3 views of hell. Perhaps the teaching can be recorded and posted on his web-site. I am sure he will cover many of the types of questions you want answered. (And he does such a better job at expressing himself!)
Blessings to you, Homer!
Mike
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_STEVE7150
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I grow tired of writing, and communicating is not one of my skills, but I wanted to take a shot at some of your questions. I know that Steve Gregg is teaching Friday night in McMinnville, Oregon on the topic of the 3 views of hell. Perhaps the teaching can be recorded and posted on his web-site. I am sure he will cover many of the types of questions you want answered. (And he does such a better job at expressing himself!)
Mike, don't underestimate yourself you write very well and in an interesting way. If you're interested in listening to a radio show which examines issues like judgement day or eternal torment in hell as well as many lighter issues i want to recommend christianquestions.net , i think you would like it.
Mike, don't underestimate yourself you write very well and in an interesting way. If you're interested in listening to a radio show which examines issues like judgement day or eternal torment in hell as well as many lighter issues i want to recommend christianquestions.net , i think you would like it.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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6. What will be preached to those in hell who have heard and rejected the gospel? A different gospel? The Holy Spirit seems to have never saved a soul apart from the gospel. "The gospel is the power unto salvation". Who will preach what and when?
John 5.29 says unbelievers get resurrected to judgement and Rev 20.12 " And i saw the dead both great and small stand before the throne. AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED" , What books? And the dead were judged , out of the things which were written in the books according to their works."
Does God need books to know what are the works of unsaved or could they be judged by the things in the books because the books are the gospels? That's how the saved are saved not by their works but by the things in the GOSPELS.
"In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness." Isa 29.18 " The humble shall increase their joy in the Lord."
"The scornful one is consumed, and all who watch for iniquity are cut off."
Isa 29.20
Consumed does'nt sound like eternal torture.
"For the earth shall be filled by knowing the glory of the Lord" Hab 2.14
"For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord" Isa 11.9
John 5.29 says unbelievers get resurrected to judgement and Rev 20.12 " And i saw the dead both great and small stand before the throne. AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED" , What books? And the dead were judged , out of the things which were written in the books according to their works."
Does God need books to know what are the works of unsaved or could they be judged by the things in the books because the books are the gospels? That's how the saved are saved not by their works but by the things in the GOSPELS.
"In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness." Isa 29.18 " The humble shall increase their joy in the Lord."
"The scornful one is consumed, and all who watch for iniquity are cut off."
Isa 29.20
Consumed does'nt sound like eternal torture.
"For the earth shall be filled by knowing the glory of the Lord" Hab 2.14
"For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord" Isa 11.9
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Mike,
You said:
I once read the sad story of a man who knew only Calvinism. He looked at his children with great anxiety, saying to himself "surely God would not be so good as to elect all my children. If I only knew which ones were not predestined for heaven, I would be so good to them in this life because that is the only happiness they will ever know."
And you said:
If they believe as they say, when witnessing to unbelievers they should hold out the hope of eternal blessings and warn of the terrible tempory correction that awaits the unrepentent. I'm wondering if they do this. If I was a skeptic and read their stuff I would be thinking "if there is a judgement day I will confess Jesus as Lord and say I'm sorry and promise to do better. Seems that should take care of the need for correction".
I do not believe we are given the information we need to give them that hope. I believe we should speak as the Bible speaks. Jesus said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, he that believes not shall be damned". Do we have the authority to soften what He has said?
And again:
And again:
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Blessings, Homer
You said:
If you had been my child I would have taken you in my arms and assured you of how Jesus loved children, "the kingdom of heaven is made up of such as these". In my opinion, children are not accountable for their sins, and I believe this is so to an age of at least 12, and likely even older. Of course a Calvinist could give a child no such assurance.From my own personal experience I know of the great torment I went through as a little child after hearing the doctrine of eternal conscious torment preached. There were many nights I lay in bed as a small child pleading with God to not let me die, to please forgive me of my sins, to not let me be tormented forever. Very, very scary.
I once read the sad story of a man who knew only Calvinism. He looked at his children with great anxiety, saying to himself "surely God would not be so good as to elect all my children. If I only knew which ones were not predestined for heaven, I would be so good to them in this life because that is the only happiness they will ever know."
And you said:
I could not agree with you more. My impression is that the universalist arguments are based on wishful thinking, conjecture, speculation, verses taken out of context, definate meanings assigned to the ambiguous, etc.Before I get started, my viewpoint is that we would all be best served if we as Christians were not so insistent on teaching as doctrine things unless the Bible is very clear on them.
If they believe as they say, when witnessing to unbelievers they should hold out the hope of eternal blessings and warn of the terrible tempory correction that awaits the unrepentent. I'm wondering if they do this. If I was a skeptic and read their stuff I would be thinking "if there is a judgement day I will confess Jesus as Lord and say I'm sorry and promise to do better. Seems that should take care of the need for correction".
I do not believe we are given the information we need to give them that hope. I believe we should speak as the Bible speaks. Jesus said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, he that believes not shall be damned". Do we have the authority to soften what He has said?
And again:
That is just the point. The man had no mercy. The people of that culture would have understood (as Joachim Jeremias pointed out, "Parables of Jesus") that the man could never possibly get out. There are many merciless people in this world.What would a first century hearer have thought of Jesus telling this story?
Perhaps they would have thought that when the kingdom came, that God through the Christ would judge people based on how they treated others. Doesn’t much of the Bible indicate that God will show mercy to the merciful, forgiveness to those who forgive, that with the same measure we use to apportion grace, God will use when He apportions to us?
And again:
Ezekiel 18 answers this question very well. "the soul who sins will die". The soul who turns away from sin "he shall surely live; he shall not die". Is not the life and death metaphorical of someting else? After all, we all will die a physical death.Why would God have misled people for centuries by telling them that they would die if they sinned, offered them life if they repented, and then at the judgment say ‘Sorry, when I said death, I meant eternal life in a lake of fire without the possibility of parole.”
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Blessings, Homer
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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A Berean
I think Homer and Mike have both articulated their positions exceptionally well. I disagree with Mike in his modest claim that I could present answers better than he does. I know Mike and Homer personally (though I don't think they have met each other). It is the opportunity to make friends with biblically-literate people on multiple sides of an issue that makes it so much more satisfying for me to be a non-denominational teacher-at-large, rather than being a denominational pastor who is limited, chiefly, to having close friends who think as he does. Some pastors manage to escape this restriction, but many do not have such a privilege. I appreciate you all.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
As I have said many times, I am not a "Universalist" in the usual sense.
Most who lay claim to that name, believe that no one will suffer in Gehenna at all, but that everyone will automatically go to heaven.
However, I am a believer in the "reconciliation of all things" to God, as the scripture teaches.
I hope I shall have the time to answer your questions thoroughly, Homer.
But meanwhile I present something for your consideration.
You wrote:
I do not know why God allows many of those who love Him, as well as other good people to suffer terribly in this life. This has been the philosphical question of the milleniums. Many books have been written on the subject. But no one, to my knowledge, has given an entirely satisfactory answer.
Your question seems somewhat analgous to "If Joe does not allow himself to murder Sam, how can he allow himself to hit Sam in the head and knock him out?" The two actions do not seem to be equivalent in severity.
Let's assume that God allows suffering in this life for some purpose. Indeed, it seems that some people who have suffered have come out the better for it.
On the other hand, God allows such horrible things as the rape and murder of a little girl. Right now, I am incapable of seeing that as a loving on God's part. But I would rather take the position, that as a mere human being, I do not understand God's purpose (if He has one) in allowing such things. I am inclined to think it is because in most cases, He refuses to interfere with the free will of man. I think the ability to choose is the chief way in which man was created in God's image. It would seem that God wants man, of his own free will, to choose the good and eschew the evil. We read that "God's patience is meant to bring you to repentance".
However, the matter of God allowing the wicked to suffer endlessly is quite another matter. What would be the purpose of God allowing endless suffering? It could never do those wicked ones any good. So if they cannot repent and be changed into righteous people, why would He not annihilate them? The only possible purpose would be that God wants them to suffer forever. Indeed, I once read a "Christian" writer who stated that one of the greatest pleasures of the redeemed in heaven is to see the wicked suffer endlessly in hell. I turn with loathing from such a sentiment.
The idea that God allows endless suffering does injustice to His character.
God's love is so deep, that He will do whatever it takes to influence every rebel to repent and submit to Christ, just as you and I did. Given enough time, every individual will do that of his own free will. To say that such a one cannot repent is to set limits on his free will.
Also, if God's patience waits here in this life for the wicked to repent, why should it be any different in the next life when the wicked are resurrected?
Why should God give up on them just because they died a physical death?
Most who lay claim to that name, believe that no one will suffer in Gehenna at all, but that everyone will automatically go to heaven.
However, I am a believer in the "reconciliation of all things" to God, as the scripture teaches.
I hope I shall have the time to answer your questions thoroughly, Homer.
But meanwhile I present something for your consideration.
You wrote:
God does not do what is contrary to His nature. His nature is LOVE since "God is love".5. If God cannot allow the wicked to suffer endlessly, how can he allow those who love Him to suffer so terribly in this life?
I do not know why God allows many of those who love Him, as well as other good people to suffer terribly in this life. This has been the philosphical question of the milleniums. Many books have been written on the subject. But no one, to my knowledge, has given an entirely satisfactory answer.
Your question seems somewhat analgous to "If Joe does not allow himself to murder Sam, how can he allow himself to hit Sam in the head and knock him out?" The two actions do not seem to be equivalent in severity.
Let's assume that God allows suffering in this life for some purpose. Indeed, it seems that some people who have suffered have come out the better for it.
On the other hand, God allows such horrible things as the rape and murder of a little girl. Right now, I am incapable of seeing that as a loving on God's part. But I would rather take the position, that as a mere human being, I do not understand God's purpose (if He has one) in allowing such things. I am inclined to think it is because in most cases, He refuses to interfere with the free will of man. I think the ability to choose is the chief way in which man was created in God's image. It would seem that God wants man, of his own free will, to choose the good and eschew the evil. We read that "God's patience is meant to bring you to repentance".
However, the matter of God allowing the wicked to suffer endlessly is quite another matter. What would be the purpose of God allowing endless suffering? It could never do those wicked ones any good. So if they cannot repent and be changed into righteous people, why would He not annihilate them? The only possible purpose would be that God wants them to suffer forever. Indeed, I once read a "Christian" writer who stated that one of the greatest pleasures of the redeemed in heaven is to see the wicked suffer endlessly in hell. I turn with loathing from such a sentiment.
The idea that God allows endless suffering does injustice to His character.
God's love is so deep, that He will do whatever it takes to influence every rebel to repent and submit to Christ, just as you and I did. Given enough time, every individual will do that of his own free will. To say that such a one cannot repent is to set limits on his free will.
Also, if God's patience waits here in this life for the wicked to repent, why should it be any different in the next life when the wicked are resurrected?
Why should God give up on them just because they died a physical death?
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Hey, I'm not as locked into my position as you might think. I realize I could possibly be wrong, and would be glad to find out I am. I just think the case is very weak for the universalist view.
Paidion wrote:
"I once read a 'Christian' writer who stated that one of the greatest pleasures of the redeemed in heaven is to see the wicked suffer endlessly in hell. I turn with loathing from such a sentiment."
Paidion, I agree. That attitude is apalling. Jesus doesn't need "friends" like that. (Come to think of it, He may not call him friend.)
Paidion wrote:
"I once read a 'Christian' writer who stated that one of the greatest pleasures of the redeemed in heaven is to see the wicked suffer endlessly in hell. I turn with loathing from such a sentiment."
Paidion, I agree. That attitude is apalling. Jesus doesn't need "friends" like that. (Come to think of it, He may not call him friend.)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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A Berean
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
Jesus said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, he that believes not shall be damned". Do we have the authority to soften what He has said?
No but every other bible other then the KJV translates "krisis" as judged or condemned not damned. Damned is a very different meaning then judged.
My mother died of cancer while she was living in my house. She said several times that her fate "was in God's hands." She had faith and trust in God but to my knowledge never had the gospel preached to her. So Christ who told us to be merciful and love our neighbors and told us to forgive 7x70 times is going to be our judge. We are to conform ourselves to his charactor so if he instructed us to have these traits that means these are his traits.
So my mother who trusted God but did'nt have the opportunity of having the gospel preached or growing up in a bible believing christian home like many here may have will be facing Christ on judgement day. This same Christ who instructed us to be loving,forgiving and merciful is going to eternally torture her?
When Nixon was president he often used the phrase "silent majority" and that is the place most people throughout history in this life stand as far as hearing the true gospel.
"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men , the Man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in DUE TIME." 1 Tim 2.5
What does due time mean when the verse before says "God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth." Are God's desires a weak wish or does scripture say that his will comes to pass. Christ does not need to coerce anyone or force anyone to believe and repent , He can destroy incorragable sinners at any point . As far as the justice of many believers suffering in this life wheras some sinner can simply be raised to life and then accept Christ , i suspect since God is a God of justice and will demand justice that it will be a lot more testing then that. And God being God will find the perfect balance.
And words like "eternal fire" are not so clear because in Hebrews God is called "a consuming fire" and we know He is "eternal" so He certainly can be the "Eternal Fire."
And the argument of "aionios life" must mean the same length of time as "aionios kolasis" would be valid if this was the only verse addressing this subject but there are so many verses that speak against eternal torture. And even if "aionios kolasis" meant eternal punishment , it still does'nt mean eternal PUNISHING as a continuing ongoing process. It could still logically mean eternally punished because the destruction of the sinner is eternal. He is eternally "cut off."
No but every other bible other then the KJV translates "krisis" as judged or condemned not damned. Damned is a very different meaning then judged.
My mother died of cancer while she was living in my house. She said several times that her fate "was in God's hands." She had faith and trust in God but to my knowledge never had the gospel preached to her. So Christ who told us to be merciful and love our neighbors and told us to forgive 7x70 times is going to be our judge. We are to conform ourselves to his charactor so if he instructed us to have these traits that means these are his traits.
So my mother who trusted God but did'nt have the opportunity of having the gospel preached or growing up in a bible believing christian home like many here may have will be facing Christ on judgement day. This same Christ who instructed us to be loving,forgiving and merciful is going to eternally torture her?
When Nixon was president he often used the phrase "silent majority" and that is the place most people throughout history in this life stand as far as hearing the true gospel.
"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men , the Man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in DUE TIME." 1 Tim 2.5
What does due time mean when the verse before says "God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth." Are God's desires a weak wish or does scripture say that his will comes to pass. Christ does not need to coerce anyone or force anyone to believe and repent , He can destroy incorragable sinners at any point . As far as the justice of many believers suffering in this life wheras some sinner can simply be raised to life and then accept Christ , i suspect since God is a God of justice and will demand justice that it will be a lot more testing then that. And God being God will find the perfect balance.
And words like "eternal fire" are not so clear because in Hebrews God is called "a consuming fire" and we know He is "eternal" so He certainly can be the "Eternal Fire."
And the argument of "aionios life" must mean the same length of time as "aionios kolasis" would be valid if this was the only verse addressing this subject but there are so many verses that speak against eternal torture. And even if "aionios kolasis" meant eternal punishment , it still does'nt mean eternal PUNISHING as a continuing ongoing process. It could still logically mean eternally punished because the destruction of the sinner is eternal. He is eternally "cut off."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
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_Benjamin Ho
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
- Location: Singapore
Steve gave a series on Beyond End Times last year. The lecture on the final state of unbelievers can be found at:mdh wrote:I know that Steve Gregg is teaching Friday night in McMinnville, Oregon on the topic of the 3 views of hell. Perhaps the teaching can be recorded and posted on his web-site.
http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_g ... 04_bet.mp3
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Grace and peace,
Benjamin Ho
Benjamin Ho