Alternative Views of Hell

[_Derek]

But doesn't it stand to reason that Jesus, if giving an either or option would apply ones choice to the life they live in the body? And these choices are judged on judgment day? What is the point of judgment day if your given more opportunity to repent (logically leading to more judgment day[s])?

I mentioned to some brothers at church that I wasn't aware of any verses that say a person "can't" repent after death and they brought up this very thing. I think it is a very valid point. The possibility of repentence after death would seem to lead to other "judgement days" as people repent, and are given new judgements.

I am only aware of one <b>J</b>udgement day after death (the one on the last "day"). It would seem that that is the time when those with or without their names in the "book of life" are consigned to live with God, or the lake of fire.

[Guest]

But doesn't it stand to reason that Jesus, if giving an either or option would apply ones choice to the life they live in the body? And these choices are judged on judgment day? What is the point of judgment day if your given more opportunity to repent (logically leading to more judgment day[s])?

I mentioned to some brothers at church that I wasn't aware of any verses that say a person "can't" repent after death and they brought up this very thing. I think it is a very valid point. The possibility of repentence after death would seem to lead to other "judgement days" as people repent, and are given new judgements.

I am only aware of one <b>J</b>udgement day after death (the one on the last "day"). It would seem that that is the time when those with or without their names in the "book of life" are consigned to live with God, or the lake of fire.

Either that or God is just changing the "heavens and earth" so that the righteous and unrighteous are now in separate places with the unrighteous still being reconciled one person at a time. But again, I don't see that hope being held out in the gospel. But if it's true, that's great!

[Guest]

When the resurrection occurs, there will be no more testing. We will be standing before the judge. Sure everyone who is lost will want to repent and will be sorry, but only because they have no more freedom


In John 5.29 when the unjust are raised to damnation/condemnation/judgement the greek word used is "krisis" from which our english word "crisis" comes from. I understand it to mean a severe time of testing and decision making. To me it implies there is a possibility to come through a crisis successfully.
As to whether everyone who is lost would want to repent because of loss of freedom, i wonder if you were facing Christ at judgement day and you had never known him during your life or you had been lied to about him , would you then have the same opinion about all the lost.
Do you think everyone has had an equal opportunity throughout the course of the history of mankind to know Christ? God is a JUST God before anything else "Matt 23.23 , so if that scenerio is left like that, is that justice?

[Guest]

I mentioned to some brothers at church that I wasn't aware of any verses that say a person "can't" repent after death and they brought up this very thing. I think it is a very valid point. The possibility of repentence after death would seem to lead to other "judgement days" as people repent, and are given new judgements.


Is God limited by 24 hour days? Can a day to God be an age , yes according to Peter and Moses.
And what is the purpose of judgement day? "When thy judgements are in the earth , the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" Isa 26.9
And IMO the books opened on that day are not books of works but the gospels , and they will be judged by how they observe the things in those books.
"In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book , and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness" Isa 29.11
"Out of darkness" verses what Paul says that now we see out of a glass darkly.

[_Derek]

But if it's true, that's great!

I agree! I would love for Universalism to be true. But as of now, I don't see it.

God bless,

[Guest]

I have read comments several times on this forum that those who reject Christ in this life will have the same attitude once they are resurrected. Why would someone come to this conclusion? Do you not think that going through death and the destruction of the flesh may serve to change someone's attitude? It could be that death is the great purifier that is required to bring about willing subjection to Christ. Isn't death the wages of sin?...or is it death plus torment in hell?

Todd

I don't think a resurrected person will be able to change their mind. I believe the resurrection takes place just before the judgment. In other words, now is the favorable time of salvation. When the resurrection occurs, there will be no more testing. We will be standing before the judge.

Hi Sean,

I certainly understand what you are saying here. ...that we only have this life to determine our eternity. But there are some real questions that must be answered if this is true. The first one is the one that Steve7150 asked: Does everyone have an equal opportunity to believe the Gospel in this life? Most people in the world never hear it at all; others hear a perverted version of it. Some grow up in Christian homes while others live in obscurity.

The next question is about the judgment criteria. Every verse that you read regarding the judgment says that it is all about works. If you do good you will be rewarded, if you do evil you will be punished. This is what the Bible says.

According to the traditional view, believers suffer no punishment and non-believers suffer eternal punishment. According to the traditional view, believers reap only rewards and non-believers receive only punishment. Is this true? That is not what I read in these verses...

Rom 2:6-11
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

According to these verses believers and non-believers are judged by the same criteria - our works - and we are rewarded and punished accordingly. There is not even a hint here of "imputed righteousness" providing some kind of escape for believers. This fact leads me to believe that the traditional view of these verses is not valid. It appears that this judgment is not about heaven or hell, its about rewards and punishments for all of humanity based on our works. That is what it says.

Todd

[_Derek]

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I think that it's pretty clear that we have Christs righteousness imputed to us. God is said here to be reconciling the world to Himself, but we have to "be reconciled to God" meaning we have to choose to forsake evil, and follow Christ.

I think that this is how we reconcile the ideas that we are not saved by works, but faith (Eph 2:9-10), but we're judged by our works. Faith in Jesus is not simply believing in Him, (even the devil does that), but being a disciple. We do not "practice sinning" (1Jn 3:9), but righteousness.

It would seem that the logical conclusion of your last post is that we are simply saved or not according to our works. If that is the case, why did Jesus have to die at all? If everything hinges on our behaviour, do we even need a saviour? It would seem that like in Islam, we must hope that our good works out number our bad.

[Guest]

It would seem that the logical conclusion of your last post is that we are simply saved or not according to our works.

Derek,

That is not the conclusion I was trying to make. I was simply saying that the application of these verses (Rom 2:6-11, 2 Cor 5:10) as well as other judgment verses by the traditional view/annihilation view camps is not valid. These verses state very plainly that all of humanity will be rewarded and punished according to our works. It doesn't matter if you are Jew or Greek, believer or unbeliever. These verses are not referring to who goes to heaven and who doesn't. They are saying that all will go through the judgment and all be rewarded and punished by the same criteria.

If that is the case, why did Jesus have to die at all?

Jesus conquered death. Had He not done so we would have no hope of the resurrection. He also showed us "the Way," that we should repent of our sins and shun that which is evil and seek after righteousness.

If everything hinges on our behaviour, do we even need a saviour? It would seem that like in Islam, we must hope that our good works out number our bad.

Going to heaven does not hinge on our behavior, but the rewards and punishment of the judgment does. That is what the verses say.

Todd

[_Derek]

Derek wrote:
If that is the case, why did Jesus have to die at all?


Jesus conquered death. Had He not done so we would have no hope of the resurrection. He also showed us "the Way," that we should repent of our sins and shun that which is evil and seek after righteousness.

Perhaps this is old ground with us, but just for my memory's sake, do you not think that Christ died for our justification before God on judgement day?

Both justification and judgement are legal terms. Of course, I think that the bible is pretty clear that one aspect of His death was to accomplish our justification, so there must be some sense that the apparent tension between these two ideas (judgement according to works, justification by faith) can be reconciled.

I think as I stated in an earlier post, that they are reconciled by the fact that Christians will "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality..." and will "do good works", because that is what a Christian is. Paul says that these will recieve eternal life. People who are "self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil" are not Christians. Even if a Christian has a weak walk and falls into these sins often, he will repent, and will keep getting back up and working at it. I don't think that God will punish these failures because of this, and this person will be covered by the blood of Christ.

As for our (Christians) sins, upon confession and repentence, we are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness (1jn1:9) and may have "confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming". All of these things are part of being "in Christ", which is abiding in Him, and following Him. The bible says that He is "just" to forgive us our sins for this very reason. God has cleansed us, and will not bring up the sins that we have repented of at the judgement.

The unbeliever, at the judgement, is not covered by the blood of our Lord, having neglected to follow Him, and does not have the above option available to him as far as I can see. He is not justified, and is therefore condemned. He may be sorry, but as Sean stated, of course they will be sorry, when standing before God. (I am not neccesarilly commenting on those that have not heard. I haven't worked all that out yet, but God is just, that I know).

God bless,

[Guest]

I think as I stated in an earlier post, that they are reconciled by the fact that Christians will "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality..." and will "do good works", because that is what a Christian is. Paul says that these will recieve eternal life. People who are "self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil" are not Christians. Even if a Christian has a weak walk and falls into these sins often, he will repent, and will keep getting back up and working at it. I don't think that God will punish these failures because of this, and this person will be covered by the blood of Christ.

As for our (Christians) sins, upon confession and repentence, we are forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness (1jn1:9) and may have "confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming". All of these things are part of being "in Christ", which is abiding in Him, and following Him. The bible says that He is "just" to forgive us our sins for this very reason. God has cleansed us, and will not bring up the sins that we have repented of at the judgement.

Derek,

Thanks for your reply. I really enjoy reading your posts. They are always well reasoned and you seem to really try to make scriptural arguments. I am trying to make sense of it all and find it difficult to find harmony in all the related verses. I suppose if it were easy we would all agree.

As I see it, there is no such thing as a purely evil person. Everyone (including Christians) do both good and bad things. I believe that the vast majority of people do mostly good things. So to describe all non-believers as "self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil" is not really a valid statement in almost all cases. It has been my experience that people are generally good most of the time. By the same token, Christians suffer with being self-seeking sometimes too.

What I'm trying to propose is that perhaps these judgment verses have been misapplied. We seem to think that "Judgment Day" is all about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. But if you read these judgment verses, and take them for what they say, it seems that each person will find some reward and some punishment regardless of their theology or lack thereof. If this is true, then we must re-evaluate our conclusions about the outcome of the judgment.

Todd