Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?
Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?
*Bump* (so folks will know I replied to the thread topic).
Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?
Hi Rick,
You wrote:
Hope you had a good sleep.
You wrote:
Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus seems so personal and singular until the plural "you" in verse 7. And Jesus goes on to speak of (V. 15-18) "whosoever" might not perish and others being already judged. The whole thing sounds so universal to me, not just about Israel.One example: Jesus speaking with Nicodemus at nite time (Jn 3). Jesus was amazed that Nicodemus couldn't follow him; that a "teacher of Israel" should have certainly understood what Jesus was getting at with being "born again (or from above)." Here I tend to see what needed to be born again (resurrected) was Israel. A teacher of Israel in that day & time would have known that Israel had been depicted as a valley of dead dry bones (ref. cit., Ezekiel). I have more thoughts on these kinds of things but am getting too sleepy.
Hope you had a good sleep.
Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?
robbyyoung wrote:
Question: Was Jesus the messiah?
That approach doesn't always work, sometimes not at all:1. Who's the audience
2. Audience expectation
3. Inspired Writer's prophetic declarations to that audience
4. Wrapped up in it's historical context
Will show which approach is in error.
Question: Was Jesus the messiah?
The Jews of Jesus' day.1. Who's the audience
A Messiah who would overthrow the Romans and restore Israel to glory.2. Audience expectation
The Jews had the OT prophets but misunderstood/misapplied them.3. Inspired Writer's prophetic declarations to that audience
Their historical context was, in their minds, a definite need for a Messiah to overthrow the Romans.4. Wrapped up in it's historical context
In this case, I think its the one you outlined. Works sometimes, sometimes not.Will show which approach is in error.
- robbyyoung
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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?
Hi Homer,Homer wrote:robbyyoung wrote:
That approach doesn't always work, sometimes not at all:1. Who's the audience
2. Audience expectation
3. Inspired Writer's prophetic declarations to that audience
4. Wrapped up in it's historical context
Will show which approach is in error.
Question: Was Jesus the messiah?The Jews of Jesus' day.1. Who's the audienceA Messiah who would overthrow the Romans and restore Israel to glory.2. Audience expectation
The Jews had the OT prophets but misunderstood/misapplied them.3. Inspired Writer's prophetic declarations to that audience
Their historical context was, in their minds, a definite need for a Messiah to overthrow the Romans.4. Wrapped up in it's historical context
In this case, I think its the one you outlined. Works sometimes, sometimes not.Will show which approach is in error.
Excuse me and I say this kindly, what part of the eschatological events proclaimed by the NT Writers are you not understanding? Why are you comparing Yeshua's first coming to the second? Was I not clear? Tell me were Yeshua or His Apostles spoke of end time events to take place outside their generation? I can't be any more succinct than this? Then test my outline for accuracy.
By the way, I apologize RickC. We are far removed from the topic of this thread, therefore Homer, we can continue this in one of the other pertinent threads regarding eschatology.
God Bless.
Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?
Robbie,
You wrote:
You wrote:
I made no comparison of Jesus' first and second coming. I was showing you how your method of interpretation does not always work. Sometimes it is complexly off base.Why are you comparing Yeshua's first coming to the second?
Well, we can start with Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats. Or do you know of a time when all of the nations were gathered before Jesus and judged?Tell me were Yeshua or His Apostles spoke of end time events to take place outside their generation?
Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?
Greetings,
Homer, I finally got back here.
In any event, yes, I agree the invitation to become born again was in a universal sense when Jesus spoke here. What that meant to Nicodemus and what it means to us may not be precisely the same. In a historical sense, it had definite meaning then. I'd say it has an application for us too, but not in the exact same sense; i.e., Nicodemus or any other Jewish believer were to become the remnant in Israel; we are grafted in.
Btw, I listened to Steve teachings on the passage. He thinks my interpretation is a good one, (and he mentioned many commentators accept it also). Yet Steve doesn't accept it as the best interpretation for himself.
Re: (as you wrote) " . . . and others being already judged." As Steve related, this has to do with people needing salvation and/or the entry point into the kingdom of God, i.e., they were 'in' their sins.
Thanks!
Homer, I finally got back here.
Yes, in v. 7 it's in the plural when Jesus says, "Do not marvel that I said to you (plural), 'You must be born again." It appears Jesus spoke to Nicodemus as something of a representative of the Jews, etc.You wrote:Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus seems so personal and singular until the plural "you" in verse 7. And Jesus goes on to speak of (V. 15-18) "whosoever" might not perish and others being already judged. The whole thing sounds so universal to me, not just about Israel.
In any event, yes, I agree the invitation to become born again was in a universal sense when Jesus spoke here. What that meant to Nicodemus and what it means to us may not be precisely the same. In a historical sense, it had definite meaning then. I'd say it has an application for us too, but not in the exact same sense; i.e., Nicodemus or any other Jewish believer were to become the remnant in Israel; we are grafted in.
Btw, I listened to Steve teachings on the passage. He thinks my interpretation is a good one, (and he mentioned many commentators accept it also). Yet Steve doesn't accept it as the best interpretation for himself.
Re: (as you wrote) " . . . and others being already judged." As Steve related, this has to do with people needing salvation and/or the entry point into the kingdom of God, i.e., they were 'in' their sins.
Thanks!
Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?
According to my Online Bible Program, the meanings are " as great as, as far as, how much, how many, whoever"Rick, you wrote:Doesn't "oson" mean "in as much as"?
The NASB translates it the words in all of these ways (with the frequency in parentheses):
all (9), all … who (5), all things (1), all who (6), all* (1), degree (1), extent* (2), great (1), how much (2), inasmuch* (3), long (2), many (11), more (1), much (3), so (1), so much (1), those who (3), those whom (1), very … while (1), what (2), what great things (4), whatever (14), whatever* (4), which (3), while (1), who (6).
Strongs gives the following:
all (that), as (long, many, much) (as), how great (many, much), [in-]asmuch as, so many as, that (ever), the more, those things, what (great, soever), wheresoever, wherewithsoever, which, while, who(-soever).
So I am beginning to think that translators don't know what it means, and so they translate it as whatever word of phrase they think fits the context—or else they leave it untranslated.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.