Talbott's Presentation

[Paidion]

So my question is: How do you know (if you so assume) that you are prepared enough to receive the finishing touches or that you are one that needs to go into correction for a time?

Thanks Michelle. I always appreciate your thoughtful posts.

I see the overcomers mentioned in Revelation as the ones who will share in the first resurrection when Jesus comes and puts on those finishing touches.

After telling his readers about "the rest of the dead" who will live after the millenium (Rev. 20:5), John (possibly the writer was not the apostle John) then discussed the Great White Throne judgment, and concludes in verse 15 with:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This seems to suggest that there will be some of them whose names WILL be found in the Book of Life.

As for me, I cannot say whether or not I will be judged worthy to be in the first resurrection. That would be my great hope, of course—the hope of righteousness. But the Lord knows how to judge each of us justly. If He chooses to raise me in the second resurrection, and my name is in the Book of Life, I will be delighted. In that case it seems I might need to undergo some sort of correction (purgatory?)

Even if I am cast into the Lake of Fire, I know that this would be the best thing for me. I strongly believe that God will do His best for every individual who has ever lived. For God is pure LOVE! For those who require correction in the Lake of Fire, I am sure He will not make it any more unpleasant than is absolutely necessary. I think He will also send the overcomers to help lead those consigned there to repentance and regeneration.

[Michelle]

Thank you, Paidion, for your reply and your kind words.

If I remember correctly (and there's no guarantee of that), you believe that when our bodies die, we await the resurrection(s) in the grave with no conscious awareness of passing time — in other words, whichever resurrection we are raised in, either the one before or the one after the thousand year reign of Christ along with his overcoming saints, it will be the very next event we consciously experience. It seems to me that things are almost equally advantageous for the individual in either case. I wonder, also, who or what will the overcoming saints be reigning over. I suppose it could be angels and demons.

I'm unclear about this part of your reply:

If He chooses to raise me in the second resurrection, and my name is in the Book of Life, I will be delighted. In that case it seems I might need to undergo some sort of correction (purgatory?)

I don't understand why you say that it seems you might need to undergo some sort of correction.

*Edited to add:

I took a walk and it suddenly became clear to me. If I am not raised up in the first resurrection, then obviously there is something lacking in my discipleship. Whatever is lacking — whatever disqualified me for the first resurrection and the thousand years of reigning — needs to be corrected, and although it seems from the passage that this correction won't be in the painful, yet loving, lake of fire, it will be somewhere — somewhere different from those whose names are in the Book of Life. A handy example is whether or not I truly gave up all I possess. If that is where my correction I need, I wonder if there will be opportunities to divest of possessions, or if, in fact, there will be need by others of those possessions in this place of correction. Interesting to think about...

[Paidion]

Thanks for responding, Michelle.
Now I know the secret of your thoughtful posts—it's those walks you're taking!

As for this question:

I wonder, also, who or what will the overcoming saints be reigning over. I suppose it could be angels and demons.

My belief is that in the first resurrection (of the overcoming saints both those living at the time and those who have died) as described in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, those who are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, will return triumphantly with Him back to the earth. The Greek word translated as "meet" was frequently used of the people of a city going out to meet their triumphant king returning with his troops from war, and escorting their king back to the city, giving him great honour.

I understand that Christ will set up the culmination of His rule here on earth (His Kingdom was established on earth when He reigned over His disciples). Jesus gave many parables about the growth of His Kingdom, and how when He returned He would root out of His kingdom all causes of stumbling. There will still be many ordinary mortals on the earth at that time over which Jesus and the overcomers will rule. If I am still living when Christ returns, and I do not qualify as an overcomer, I may be one of the subjects of the Kingdom right here on earth. I don't know whether or not this earthly kingdom will continue after the second resurrection at the end of the millenium. I am inclined to think that all persons after the second resurrection will be immortal. But this seems difficult to fit with Paul's statement in Romans 2:

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give lasting life...

Paul says that it is those who seek for immortality that will be given lasting life. This suggests that not all will be given immortality. And if not, then it would appear that the position of conditional immortality may be correct—that some will be utterly annihilated. However, other scriptures show that God's desire is that the sinful natures of all people become healed that they may no longer harm themselves or others. Only He can do that (with the coöperation of those whom He heals, of course).

[Michelle]

Thanks, Paidion. As long as my waistline, my energy, and my blood sugar all stay within good levels, I'll keep walking. Clarity of thought might be a pleasant side effect, although I think I made a couple of mistakes in my edited remarks.

I think I understand your view of the age to come better now. Thanks again.

[jriccitelli]

In ancient Israel, the revelation of God was only partial. In Christ it was complete.
Moses and the prophets sometimes revealed the heart of God. At other times it seems they revealed what was in their own heart, and that was frequently contrary to God (Paidion pg.4)

Paidion, I was curious, would you have listened to Moses and sacrificed a lamb and put the blood of it on the corners of your house above the door? If so, what would be your reason?
And what would happen if you did not?

[Paidion]

I don't listen to Moses. I am a disciple of Jesus the Son of God and I listen to what He instructed His disciples to do, as recorded in Matthew 5,6,and 7.

Lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him." (Matthew 17:5)

[RICHinCHRIST]

I'm also not a disciple of Moses, but I would have taken his advice authoritatively if I was in the generation that was rescued from Egypt.

But Paidion's point is that the revelation of God wasn't complete at the time of Moses. I would still submit to Moses because he was God's messenger at that time, but that would be because I would also have a limited revelation of God just like Moses did. Moses was probably the closest man to God other than Jesus, since He spoke face to face with God as if he was his friend, and since he was the most humble man to have lived up till that point. But I also think that Moses' revelation was not full, because he wasn't "one" with theFather like Jesus was. Moses would have stoned the adulteress in John chapter eight. Jesus did not and chose to forgive her. This proves that there was some revelation that Moses didn't fully comprehend at that time. Or, perhaps, God chose to only reveal Himself partially and Moses was not at fault. The latter scenario is what I think is true, rather than the implication that Moses heard God's voice incorrectly.

[Homer]

But Paidion's point is that the revelation of God wasn't complete at the time of Moses.

Paidion's point is that Moses commanded some things that God never intended.

[Paidion]

It's difficult to know what you would have done, had you lived in ancient Israel.

Would you have obeyed Moses when he required you to bring your rebellious children before the elders to be stoned to death?
If you are a woman, would you have obeyed Moses and submitted to having your hand cut off under particular conditions?

The laws of Moses were a mixed bag. Some of God's instructions, revealed through the prophets of those days (including Moses) were rightous and good. Some of God's instructions were partial and limited to apply to an immature people. And my opinion is that sometimes Moses commandments were his own ideas put forth to deal with some of the difficult problems of the day. Some instructions didn't seem to make sense. Why were the people not to make clothing made from more than one type of material? Or was it symbolic—that they needed to be a pure people and worship the one true God and no other.

[Michelle]

I don't listen to Moses. I am a disciple of Jesus the Son of God and I listen to what He instructed His disciples to do, as recorded in Matthew 5,6,and 7.

Lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him." (Matthew 17:5)