Help with finding a source

[marty]

Thanks Matt. Yes I'm trying to find the original source (supposedly in the Gemara Babylonicum) to confirm that the story already existed and would have been well known when Jesus told it. I've found several instances where Whitby, Thayer, and someone named Sheringham in the preface to his Joma; 2nd are supposed to have seen a story very similar to this parable in this document.

Problem is as you know the searchable PDFs on this are mostly in Aramaic and what is available in English is very incomplete. So far I'm having no success finding this. I'm now trying to get someone familiar with Aramaic to look for me. I'd sure like to have a working familiarity with Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic!

I've been researching the Christian Universalism, Annihilationism and Eternal Torment views for a couple years and this parable is one of a few things I still need more research on. Its been a very interesting and life changing study!

[mattrose]

Have you been collecting your research in any share-able format? Will you be writing any sort of conclusion to your study? I'd enjoy reading your thoughts.

As I said above, I did a paper on this specific parable. As a result, i don't consider this parable to be very valuable to the 'hell' debate based on my findings.

[marty]

Yes its a massive document base right now and I do plan on writing something from a different approach than much that is out there on the subject now. Gods eternal character as revealed in ALL of scripture is the starting point for me.

I consider the parable valuable here because it has been used so extensively to "prove" the ET doctrine by most of the Church for the last 1800 years. Its amazing how you are taught at most bible colleges to never base major doctrine on parables or apocalyptic passages and yet most of the ET view is based on just such passages, The WHOLE of scripture and Gods revealed character in his creation must be used to reach a view as to Gods eternal purposes.

IMO we will never know God until he reveals himself to us. All the study in the world won't make up for an intimacy with Father God as far as knowing him is concerned. We are to study to show ourselves approved, AND the Holy Spirit was given to lead us to all truth. When he is depended on to guide our life and study we see clearly. When we use our intellect primarily, we see through the veil of spiritual pride. I'm ashamed to say I've used the latter for many years of my walk.

[mattrose]

I'm currently writing on the subject too, for school

My document will be in the 60-100 page range and come at the issue as a Wesleyan pastor. I will use the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (Scripture, Reason, Tradition, Experience) to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the 3 views (which I'm referring to as everlasting misery, eventual extinction, and eventual restoration). For the Scripture section, I tried to pick the best 5 verses for each view to analyze. For 'Everlasting Misery' I did NOT pick the rich man and lazarus parable because, as I said, it really doesn't make their case at all. BUT I will include my reasons for excluding it as an appendix.

[darinhouston]

Matt, please consider posting it here (or a link to it). I very much appreciate and enjoy your writing and your research.

[TK]

Ditto!

TK

[marty]

I did NOT pick the rich man and lazarus parable because, as I said, it really doesn't make their case at all. BUT I will include my reasons for excluding it as an appendix.

The problem is that they THINK it does make their case though. I agree this shouldn't even be a part of the argument at all. But this is almost always brought up as a major proof text for the view.

Now If there were a parable that seemed to support the CU or Annihilationism view, they would be asking how you can possibly bring a parable up as a proof text to support a position LOL.

[mattrose]

Yeah, the nature of my paper is to try to make the BEST possible argument for each view. Thus, I don't use the parable of the rich man and lazarus in my section arguing FOR the everlasting misery position. But, since you are right that advocates DO IN FACT use it to support their view (wrongfully), I have addressed the parable in a separate paper and will include it as an appendix.

[psimmond]

The fact that this is a parable doesn't mean that we can't use it to further our knowledge of Hades. Unlike Aesop's fables, Jesus' parables use realistic scenarios. So I see no more reason to think that a man in Hades couldn't feel as though he were burning up and long for water than to think that a son couldn't waste his inheritance or a woman lose a coin.

While this parable doesn't say that the torment will be eternal, it might give valuable insights into the nature of the torment that we can apply to hell.

[jeremiah]

So I see no more reason to think that a man in Hades couldn't feel as though he were burning up and long for water than to think that a son couldn't waste his inheritance or a woman lose a coin.

i don't think these three examples of possibly realistic scenarios are comparable. a son wasting his inheritance, or a woman losing a coin are things we can experience here anytime. we don't have to die to possibly experience them. to glean insights about "hades" from luke 16 seems a stretch to me. in my experience with folks doing that with this parable, they inevitably cherry pick which parts they want to take to be revealing the real nature of hades. i'm not accusing you of this, i just think in doing so we miss the point. i think luke 16:14,15 tells us precisely who jesus told this parable to and for what purpose.

to say jesus' parables used realistic scenarios is true, but it's still incomplete. the scenarios were realistic and familiar most importantly to his hearers. if this is jesus commingling then putting a twist on existing religious stories, then it would not be the only parable that doesn't represent reality in whole. jesus said later that the mustard seed was "indeed the least of all seeds." to there mind, it probably was the smallest seed. but the mustard seed is not at all the smallest seed ever. many herbs have seeds that are half it's size and even some smaller than that. i think parables, while possibly using realism, more importantly are purposed to reveal or conceal truth, by parallels.

i think what jesus intended the pharisees to take away was how they would have had, or thought the rich man to be in bliss, and the obviously cursed lazarus to be in torment. but as jesus said in v 15 just before, "what is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination in the sight of God..." but instead, like his name suggests (short for eleazar), God helped him, whom the pharisees would have deemed defiled and cursed. likewise, the pharisses who thought they were accepted by God, were not, because man looks on the outside, but God looks in the heart.

grace and peace...