Todd wrote:Firstly, I don't know how you draw that conclusion from reading Rom 8:18.
Hi Todd,
I don't draw that conclusion from reading Rom 8:18. I
do see that conclusion as a natural consequence of what I understand you're view of salvation to be, and, were I looking at Rom 8:18 from that perspective I don't see how I could draw any other conclusion. This present, mortal, finite life, when measured against the backdrop of eternity, shrinks to insignificance. It, in fact, becomes literally infinitesimal. If salvation is limited merely to avoiding the unpleasant consequences of sin in this present, mortal, finite life alone, then it too would shrink to the infinitesimal.
It is this concept, of measuring the pain of this present, mortal, finite life against the backdrop of eternal glory that I believe Paul is addressing in Rom 8:18.
So, I'm not saying that I believe salvation shrinks to insignificance. Rather, that it seems to me that you're saying exactly that when you suggest that salvation applies to this present, mortal, finite life alone.
Secondly, I don't see how the reconciliation of all mankind to God is akin to a self-help book.
That's very strawmanish. I'm not saying any such thing.
BTW, I'm really, really, really trying not level straw man attacks against your view either. That's why I keep throwing in these parentheticals. I'm attempting to address this notion that the consequences of salvation are limited to this current life only, which seems to me to be what you're suggesting. If it is
not what you're suggesting, then I've totally misunderstood you're view, and we're talking past each other, and I
am, in fact, beating on a scarecrow.
I'm not trying to trivialize the idea of reconciliation of all mankind. As I've said several times, I would
love to adopt that view. I really would. In fact, it's probably to the point of not being as balanced as I should be on the topic. It's almost as though I'm looking for an excuse to adopt the view of the reconciliation of all mankind.
What I was trying to say is that, if salvation is limited to this life and this life alone, and if it is limited to avoiding the unpleasantness that comes from sinning in this life and in this life alone, then, the Bible is just about avoiding the negative consequences of sin in this life and in this life alone. There are a lot of self-help books that will help me do the same thing.
This all comes down to a very different view of the definition of salvation. I want to be very clear, that if you're
not advocating that salvation is limited to what happens to us in this life alone, then pretty much everything I've posted in my last two posts doesn't even apply.
If that is what you affirm, I have a couple of other questions for you.
Be blessed.