As an ultra-universalist, I don't believe in the common view of hell as post-death un-ending punishment. Today, being Easter, I was listening to the sermon in which the preacher explained that Jesus, through taking the sins of the world upon him at the cross, bore God's wrath for us. First let me say that Jesus' death was horrific and I don't mean to minimize it at all, but if Jesus sacrifice was sufficient to secure forgiveness of sins for the world, how can it be that a soul who is found lacking at the judgment should suffer infinitely worse than did our Saviour whose suffering lasted only hours? I think this is a fair question. Where is the justice in this? If Jesus' death was the ultimate sacrifice (indeed it was), and able to secure forgiveness for millions (perhaps billions), why should a man suffer endless torture for the sins of one man (his own sins)?
Todd
God's Wrath
Re: God's Wrath
Hi Todd,
You seem to fail to take into consideration the quality of the person sacrificed. Jesus was sinless, the "lamb without blemish". By comparison with me, I think He was a more than adequate sacrifice for the total of humanity.
how can it be that a soul who is found lacking at the judgment should suffer infinitely worse than did our Saviour whose suffering lasted only hours?
You seem to fail to take into consideration the quality of the person sacrificed. Jesus was sinless, the "lamb without blemish". By comparison with me, I think He was a more than adequate sacrifice for the total of humanity.
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: God's Wrath
How is a sheep or a dove or a quantity of flour a sacrifice for a man's sins?
Sacrifice is not a matter of balancing quantities in a cosmic checkbook of suffering. It is an event in the evolution of our relationships with G-d -- sometimes, a didactic event; sometimes, a cathartic event; sometimes, a celebratory event; and time and time again, a covenantal event.
Sacrifice is not a matter of balancing quantities in a cosmic checkbook of suffering. It is an event in the evolution of our relationships with G-d -- sometimes, a didactic event; sometimes, a cathartic event; sometimes, a celebratory event; and time and time again, a covenantal event.
Re: God's Wrath
Todd,
As an ultra-universalist, I really would have expected your argument to go the other direction. That is, to borrow Homer's words, given the quality of the person sacrificed, the "lamb without blemish", what possible value can there be in endlessly tormenting a soul for whom Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, already suffered?
As an ultra-universalist, I really would have expected your argument to go the other direction. That is, to borrow Homer's words, given the quality of the person sacrificed, the "lamb without blemish", what possible value can there be in endlessly tormenting a soul for whom Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, already suffered?
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jriccitelli
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Re: God's Wrath
Todd isn’t it that Jesus is our 'God and Creator' that makes His suffering so ultimate?
(It is deplorable foolishness for created things to have put their Creator on a cross)
So it was not the length of time, or the amount of suffering that made it of such worth but it was because of 'who' suffered. Although the length of time, and method of suffering did make it 'more' atrocious and horrible, especially in light of who it was.
Todd I fully agree with the point; 'why should a man suffer endless torture for the sins of one man (himself)?'
Eternal torment does not make any sense since God is fair and just.
Gods punishment never seemed unjust to me since I read that the 'fire and its smoke' go on forever, but all sin is punished fairly (the Law is very clear, an eye for an eye). The punishments fit the crimes, then, the fire eventually destroys the sinner and his soul entirely. This is what happens in physical jails and physical fires, so why should the metaphors be hard to understand simply because this is in a place after death?
I presume some will say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but He neither has pleasure in their punishment which He will do, He has done, and if only for the benefit and a lesson to the other created things. Otherwise no lesson would have been made, nothing learned, and all this has been done without reason.
Their inner thought is that their houses are forever And their dwelling places to all generations; They have called their lands after their own names.12 But man in his pomp will not endure; He is like the beasts that perish. (Psalm 49:11-12)
(It is deplorable foolishness for created things to have put their Creator on a cross)
So it was not the length of time, or the amount of suffering that made it of such worth but it was because of 'who' suffered. Although the length of time, and method of suffering did make it 'more' atrocious and horrible, especially in light of who it was.
Todd I fully agree with the point; 'why should a man suffer endless torture for the sins of one man (himself)?'
Eternal torment does not make any sense since God is fair and just.
Gods punishment never seemed unjust to me since I read that the 'fire and its smoke' go on forever, but all sin is punished fairly (the Law is very clear, an eye for an eye). The punishments fit the crimes, then, the fire eventually destroys the sinner and his soul entirely. This is what happens in physical jails and physical fires, so why should the metaphors be hard to understand simply because this is in a place after death?
I presume some will say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but He neither has pleasure in their punishment which He will do, He has done, and if only for the benefit and a lesson to the other created things. Otherwise no lesson would have been made, nothing learned, and all this has been done without reason.
Their inner thought is that their houses are forever And their dwelling places to all generations; They have called their lands after their own names.12 But man in his pomp will not endure; He is like the beasts that perish. (Psalm 49:11-12)
Re: God's Wrath
Acutally, I considered that point, but it still doesn't measure up in my mind. Infinite torment can never be just, IMO.Homer wrote:You seem to fail to take into consideration the quality of the person sacrificed. Jesus was sinless, the "lamb without blemish". By comparison with me, I think He was a more than adequate sacrifice for the total of humanity.
Todd
Last edited by Todd on Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: God's Wrath
Perry,Perry wrote:Todd,
As an ultra-universalist, I really would have expected your argument to go the other direction. That is, to borrow Homer's words, given the quality of the person sacrificed, the "lamb without blemish", what possible value can there be in endlessly tormenting a soul for whom Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, already suffered?
Excellent point; however, as an ultra-universalist, I believe that men do suffer in this life for their sinful ways (reaping what they sow). Jesus sacrifice gave him the power and authority to raise everyone from the dead; to free them from their corruptible, natural self, unto a glorious incorruptible spiritual existence.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
Todd
Re: God's Wrath
But what is the point of raising the dead only to destroy them again? If a lesson is learned, why annihilated them?jriccitelli wrote:I presume some will say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but He neither has pleasure in their punishment which He will do, He has done, and if only for the benefit and a lesson to the other created things. Otherwise no lesson would have been made, nothing learned, and all this has been done without reason.
Todd
Re: God's Wrath
Todd wrote:But what is the point of raising the dead only to destroy them again?...
if conditional immortality is the correct conclusion from scripture, then to fulfill what God said he would do concerning the judgement and the execution of justice.
as an ultra-universalist, do you affirm a resurrection of the dead as would be construed by so called orthodoxy of today? i'm only seeking clarification on your position...
grace and peace...
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
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jriccitelli
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Re: God's Wrath
I suppose I will come across as too dogmatic on this issue (I am what Barney Fife might refer to as 'spirited').
Understand that I do appreciate the Universalist view and sentiment but I personally cannot square it with Gods warnings of wrath and punishment in scripture.
I meant that righteous punishment always has benefit; if only for the benefit and a lesson to the 'other' created beings. The benefit is to instill a surety of Gods wrath and displeasure with sin and sinners, the audience is those who will live eternally with Him. Those who love Him and fear Him will live with Him. There are other created beings who will witness Gods wrath on unbelievers and the unrighteous, the Angels are watching all this and in many respects they are the prime audience to this event.
The punishment is a sign to those who may consider sin in the future.
The Cross is lifted up so that men may choose, to look upon it and live.
God does things for a reason and as a sign to others;
As for the censers of these men who have sinned at the cost of their lives, let them be made into hammered sheets for a plating of the altar, since they did present them before the LORD and they are holy; and they shall be for a sign to the sons of Israel."39 So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers which the men who were burned had offered, and they hammered them out as a plating for the altar,40 as a reminder to the sons of Israel that no layman who is not of the descendants of Aaron should come near to burn incense before the LORD; so that he will not become like Korah and his company--just as the LORD had spoken to him through Moses. (Numbers 16)
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge"
Like Jeremiah said; to fulfill what God said He would do.
God said that He will destroy the wicked (I trust He will do what He said).
Understand that I do appreciate the Universalist view and sentiment but I personally cannot square it with Gods warnings of wrath and punishment in scripture.
I meant that righteous punishment always has benefit; if only for the benefit and a lesson to the 'other' created beings. The benefit is to instill a surety of Gods wrath and displeasure with sin and sinners, the audience is those who will live eternally with Him. Those who love Him and fear Him will live with Him. There are other created beings who will witness Gods wrath on unbelievers and the unrighteous, the Angels are watching all this and in many respects they are the prime audience to this event.
The punishment is a sign to those who may consider sin in the future.
The Cross is lifted up so that men may choose, to look upon it and live.
God does things for a reason and as a sign to others;
As for the censers of these men who have sinned at the cost of their lives, let them be made into hammered sheets for a plating of the altar, since they did present them before the LORD and they are holy; and they shall be for a sign to the sons of Israel."39 So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers which the men who were burned had offered, and they hammered them out as a plating for the altar,40 as a reminder to the sons of Israel that no layman who is not of the descendants of Aaron should come near to burn incense before the LORD; so that he will not become like Korah and his company--just as the LORD had spoken to him through Moses. (Numbers 16)
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge"
Like Jeremiah said; to fulfill what God said He would do.
God said that He will destroy the wicked (I trust He will do what He said).