God's Wrath

[jeremiah]

hey homer,
thanks for the correction. but i think, the mechanics of everything i said still stands. we still have to interpolate something to make this an unambiguous statement, and evidence for a proper view of hell

grace and peace...

[Perry]

Perry, I have been wondering how you would view my stance.

Hi Paidion,

Thanks for your post. There is much to consider in it, and I don't want to just “react” to it, but, rather, to consider it thoughtfully. It's been a busy couple of days for me, and I'm pretty pooped right now. I started a response and realized I wanted to take a bit more time with it.

Stay tuned...

Perry

[Perry]

I agree with you and Homer on this idea of how we come to acquire our righteousness, (i.e., the garments are gifts, and we have to receive the gifts.) Steve has given some great analogies on this point. Just because a gift has strings attached, doesn't make it less of a gift.

The problem was not that the king had not provided a garment for him; the problem was that he did not do his part, stop, and put it on.

I am going to make a quick comment on this one. I have always thought the reason that this guy who showed up without the garment didn't "stop to put it on" was because he thought he was already dressed appropriately. That is to say, Jesus is making the point that there are those who say "Lord, Lord, didn't we do great works in your name?" They thought they were righteous, but they were mistaken. I'm tired, and mixing my parables, but this guy is at the wedding, thinks he's supposed to be there, and didn't seem to notice he was under dressed until the Lord pointed it out.

[Perry]

Paidion,
You'll probably notice this anyway, but moved my response to another thread since this one is growing rather large and already has several conversations in it. Also my response is rather long and involved.

[jriccitelli]

It is true I lump all Universalists in one basket, they do it themselves, the lines start to mix when CUs start to interpret verses of death and punishment as referring to only for this life, or temporal death, and especially when the fire of hell gets turned into the Refiners fire.
All Universalists seem to follow along behind Clement and Origen, the root is the same. All Universalism ends up at the same place, 'all' will be saved.
All this is wonderful, but it severely distorts all warnings and dread 'purposely' given to us in scripture.
I was addressing Ultra-Universalism, but all Universalism is certainly related.
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" I never heard a response to what the 'Wrath of the Lamb' is referring to from Universalism.

[jriccitelli]

Paidion wrote back in response to John 3:36;
'It is stated that he will not see life. It is not stated that he will never see life. It seems to me that the implication is that a person who continues not to be persuaded by the Son (or continues "to disobey the Son") will not see life. It does not directly address the matter of whether or not that person will have the opportunity to be persuaded in the after life'
But you have nothing that states (or confirms) that there is a second chance after death, you are imposing your 'hope' on the words of John 3:36 with nothing to substantiate it.

Steve 7150 wrote; "Judgment means nothing to Universalists" ? I really honestly don't get this logic. If punishment is not eternal, it means nothing?" I was probably referring to Paidion's statement that; 'All of God's judgments are remedial! Hallelujah!'
But still 'Judgment means nothing to Universalists' when compared to the meaning that I see in scripture, that of; terrible wrath, unspeakable, blood running down the streets, better to have a millstone tied around your neck, cut off your hand, pluck out your eye, forever dead and without God forever judgment. That’s what I'm talking about.

I was amazed by Todd's response to what Justice is (Apr 15), I would have referred to scripture itself, since God Himself is the impetus behind all moral justice (I think) and I think ancient Greek, Sumerian and Mesopotamian law was influenced by God since Adam.
Todd wrote; 'What is justice? It seems to me most folks equate justice with punishment. I don't. Think of it this way. What is an injustice? It is when someone has wronged another, right? Conversely, justice is when someone does the right thing; therefore, justice is synonymous with righteousness'
Doing the right thing is to defend the innocent, and punish the offender. It is ignorant to not separate repeat offenders from the population. If someone steals from one person, are they not required to restore the thing stolen? If someone is injured, raped or killed how do you restore such a loss? You cannot restore such a loss, so God will require punishment and millions have died and gotten away with their crimes, but vengeance is mine says the Lord "I will repay".

[jriccitelli]

God gives grace, but there is no forgiveness without sacrifice. God has appointed a day, and there are two sacrifices spoken of; one of forgiveness, and one of wrath. It is our decision as to which one we choose to be part of. God has said; 'beware, there is coming a day of reckoning'. What do you make of the Great and terrible day of the Lord?

'…And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh' (Rev.19:11-21)

How can a Ultra universalist make sense of this, if God is just going to pop all these people he just slaughtered back into existence as 'Children of God'?
In what sense is this promoting a 'during or post' punishment opportunity for conversion? This sounds as if the Judgment is made and the slaughter final. Sorry, I just don’t think everyone wants to repent.