Barclay was convinced (UR)

[Paidion]

Well, actually I am thinking that, being of short memory in relation to your previous posts on the matter. Could you expound again briefly your thoughts on the purpose of the death of Christ? I began to scroll through your many posts looking for your opinion on this, but in the end decided to resort to this post (!).Thanks

There is really no need for me to expound on this, Ian, since the apostle Paul is so clear in his statements as to the reason Christ died. Peter, too, gives the same reason, as does the writer of Hebrews. If these scriptures are not perfectly clear or do not seem to harmonize with that which I have written in my last post, please explain, and I will try to clarify. I have underlined the parts of each verse which are central to the purpose of Christ's death.

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

[Paidion]

Homer, I think I have given a full explanation of my position concerning salvation. There is no more to say. However, I will repeat the same things again, if you missed them in my other posts and in the chapter of my booklet which explains in detail.

Being saved or lost is a binary status; sanctification is an ongoing process

No. Salvation is a process and is tantamount to sanctification. It is indicated as ongoing by the verbal forms throughout the New Testament. Only in Ephesians is the phrase "you have been saved" (as a completed fact) used. And in that book, Paul seems to be speaking of the beginning of the process, the entering the door of salvation, so to speak. Whether or not one has begun the process has binary status. But for those who are being saved from sin (not from the consequences of sin but from sin itself), the process will be discontinued if the person ceases to submit to Christ, and begins living his life for himself again.

... we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. (Hebrews 3:14 RSV)]

and I question whether anyone becomes perfected in this life, with which you seem to agree.

I am not prepared to say whether anyone becomes perfected in this life or not. Jesus asks us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. He would not ask us to become perfect if it were impossible. Nevertheless, it seems likely that most or all disciples of Christ who stay on the narrow path, will progress toward perfection, and receive the finishing touches when they are raised at the first resurrection. For Paul himself said:

... whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-- that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:7-14)

So if justification is not by faith, a person can never know if or when they are saved or not.

One of the most misunderstood words in the New Testament is "justification". It is assumed that to be justified means "to be counted righteous". The word often means "to be rendered righteous".
This happens as we appropriate by faith the enabling grace of God which is made possible by Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. Some of the places where the word is used makes sense only if this meaning is employed. We can know that we have entered the door of salvation. But we cannot know the end of the process, whether or not we will terminate it by taking back our life into our own hands. When I was a Calvinist in my early twenties, a wise man said to me, "You may be saved, but you are not safe."

Jesus at least three times in the Gospel of John (3:36, 5:24, and 6:54) speaks of persons having eternal life in the present tense; He says they possess it now.

As you know, you and I disagree concerning the meaning of "αιωνιος". In your references, Jesus speaks of persons having lasting life in the present tense. This life is lasting, but it is not necessarily everlasting. If the person ceases submitting to Christ and takes his life back into his own hands, he will lose the life which Christ gives.

... we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. (Hebrews 3:14 RSV)[/i]

[Roberto]

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[Homer]

Paidion, I must say you have danced all 'round the issue without answering the question. You ought to know that I do not hold to the "eternal security" doctrine any more than you do. We will only have eternal life in the end if we are "faithful 'til death". Faith and faithfulness are so closely related that the Greek pistis can be translated as either. We are judged in the end by our works; faithfulness is the objective evidence of the abstract condition of faith.

At issue is whether a person can have any confidence in this life that they will be saved should they die. Can we know, moment by moment, that if we die we will go to be with our Lord? I believe we can; you appear to deny this is so. You cling so doggedly to your position you can not admit the obvious:

Romans 5:1-11
New King James Version (NKJV)

1. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2. through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4. and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6. For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Do you have peace with God through faith or by what you do? Paul clearly speaks of a binary state, not a process. We are justified, saved from wrath, reconciled. As long as we abide in Christ this state will not change. Certainly we must be tested in this life, we must continue in the faith, submit to Jesus as Lord. But this does not save us, it is only evidence we are in Christ.

[Paidion]

What issue do you consider that I've danced around, Homer? I answered your post, and responded to the only issues I found there.

It seems that we disagree on Paulician terms such as "justification", "salvation" and the purpose of faith. I have answered your questions and have expressed myself as fully as I know how on these issues. So please specify the "dancing issue" — and while you're at it, you might try being a little more courteous, trying to understand me to a greater degree than employing your continual put-down terminology — and resolving to attack my arguments, rather than my person.

Can we know, moment by moment, that if we die we will go to be with our Lord? I believe we can

We will only have eternal life in the end if we are "faithful 'til death"

You have affirmed your belief in both of these statements. But how can you believe both?

1. If it is possible that you will not be faithful until death, then, if that should be the case, you will not "go to be with the Lord" after death.

2. You "knowing" that you will go to be with the Lord after death, implies that you surely WILL be faithful until death, which in turn implies that you CANNOT fall away. And if you DID fall away, that implies that at no time did you KNOW that you would go to be with the Lord after death.

[Homer]

Paidion,

My sincere apology if you feel I attacked you personally - I just can not understand your position, which causes me to think you are evading the issue.

Let me try again, perhaps we can understand each other; it may be my fault in not expressing myself clearly. You wrote:

You have affirmed your belief in both of these statements. But how can you believe both?

1. If it is possible that you will not be faithful until death, then, if that should be the case, you will not "go to be with the Lord" after death.

2. You "knowing" that you will go to be with the Lord after death, implies that you surely WILL be faithful until death, which in turn implies that you CANNOT fall away. And if you DID fall away, that implies that at no time did you KNOW that you would go to be with the Lord after death.

I believe, as you do (I think), that #1 is true.

I think (at least I hope) that you misunderstand what I am saying In #2. I am saying that a person can be confident, by believing the testimony and promises of scripture, trusting in Jesus, that if at any point in time they are presently abiding in Christ (He is in fact their Lord) they will be saved if they die at that point in time. We are all fallible and it is possible that we might be tempted and fall away in the future and thus not be saved.

I believe that a person who repents and is obedient in baptism, as 3000 were on the day of Pentecost, and dies on that day, will go to be with the Lord even though they made no progress as a Christian beyond repentance. I believe some persons make much more progress in sanctification than others, and that some reach a level of progress and fail to grow any further. I believe all these will be saved. I believe we will be surprised on judgement day at the great number that Jesus claims as His own.

I think after repeatedly reading your response we may not be understanding KNOW in the same sense. You seem to be thinking of knowing something that might occur in the future while I am focusing on the present state of a person. Perhaps your open-theism is confusing the issue; you are looking at salvation from one viewpoint and I from another.

Again my apologies. Ad hominum stinks.

[Paidion]

Thank you, Homer, for your apology. I accept it, appreciating the good will you have shown.

I think (at least I hope) that you misunderstand what I am saying In #2. I am saying that a person can be confident, by believing the testimony and promises of scripture, trusting in Jesus, that if at any point in time they are presently abiding in Christ (He is in fact their Lord) they will be saved if they die at that point in time. We are all fallible and it is possible that we might be tempted and fall away in the future and thus not be saved.

I believe that a person who repents and is obedient in baptism, as 3000 were on the day of Pentecost, and dies on that day, will go to be with the Lord even though they made no progress as a Christian beyond repentance. I believe some persons make much more progress in sanctification than others, and that some reach a level of progress and fail to grow any further. I believe all these will be saved. I believe we will be surprised on judgement day at the great number that Jesus claims as His own.

Actually, and this may surprise you, I am in complete agreement with both of these paragraphs. Where we may disagree — I am not certain — may be in what that initial step may be. I agree with you that repentance and baptism is the initial step. That was the teaching of John the baptizer, Jesus, and Peter. Paul probably taught it too, even though it doesn't appear very clearly in his letters. However, we notice from the book of Acts that those who received his word were baptized. Do you agree that "repentance" means "having a change of heart and mind"? Repentance is the very first step. This first step also involves letting go of the self-life and submitting to Christ's authority. Christ said that unless you forsake all you have and follow Him, you cannot be his disciple. He didn't say you would be a poor disciple or a mediocre disciple, but indicated that unless you forsook your self-life and followed Him, you could not be His disciple at all! I see baptism as sort of similar to singing a contract to clinch a deal. If you refuse to sign the contract, the deal does not go through. When the deal with God goes through, you are regenerated, and are on the narrow road which leads to life. You are "justified" in the sense that you seem to be using "justified". You are right in the sight of God even if you have not yet made any progress in your spiritual development (like the thief on the cross who will be with Christ in paradise). Being "saved" from hell does not depend on the degree to which you become conformed to the image of Christ, but rather on the fact that you have, by God's grace, made that initial step of submission to Christ. Some think that first step is "accepting Christ as your personal Saviour" (a phrase not found anywhere in the New Testament" or "trusting in the finished work of Christ" or "believing in Christ" in some nebulous fashion. As a teenager I read every fundamentalist tract I could get a hold of. The tracts were not uniform in their description of how one could get "saved from hell." So to be on the safe side, I did them all. Nothing happened. I had actually experienced Christ for the first time much earlier in Sunday school at the age of 7. But I got off that narrow path about 35 years ago, repented and am back on it again today. By God's grace, I hope to be faithful until death.

[Homer]

Thanks Paidion, we are in agreement! My belief about baptism is the same as yours. My only caveat is that the goal is not baptism but sanctification, so what are we to make of those who have not been baptized properly or at all, yet show every sign they have been regenerated?

The fault regarding baptism is often that of the church. People are taught that baptism is "testimony" (i. e., a horizontal act aimed at other people rather than a vertical act directed to God) and thus baptism is often delayed a very long time. Baptism is never described in scripture as testimony, and no one acted as though that was the purpose.

Do you agree that "repentance" means "having a change of heart and mind"?

Yes. The only thing I would add to the sentence is "that leads to a change in behavior". And I think you believe the same.

[Paidion]

The fault regarding baptism is often that of the church. People are taught that baptism is "testimony" (i. e., a horizontal act aimed at other people rather than a vertical act directed to God) and thus baptism is often delayed a very long time. Baptism is never described in scripture as testimony, and no one acted as though that was the purpose.

Again I agree. During my teen years, I attended two different Baptist churches. The first taught the "testimony" thing as well as baptism being obedience to Christ. In any case it was regarded as a "symbol" of what had already taken place in one's regeneration. I was actually baptized in the second more conservative Baptist church. I had resisted baptism for a long time, thinking it was unnecessary. The pastor of the first church pressed me. I didn't believe that there were denominations in the church of Christ, and I was taught that baptism was merely a symbol. So I asked the pastor whether I would be doing as well to be baptized in the ____ church. "Oh no! They believe so-and-so, where as we believe "thus-and-thus!" Whatever baptism was, I couldn't accept the idea that it was based upon theological opinion, and since I was "saved", I thought it wasn't necessary anyway.

But somehow, I felt the Lord had strongly impressed me to be baptized in the second, more conservative church. I fully expected that I would receive the Holy Spirit when I was baptized. But it seemed that the pastor immersed me more as a ritual than a belief that God was in anyway active in the baptism. Nevertheless, I believed that I had actually received the Holy Spirit in following the Lord in baptism. I was disappointed to discover that baptism in the second church made me a member of that local church, whereas my personal belief was that it made me a member of the only church there is, namely the church of Christ. So much to my dismay, I unwittingly became a Baptist. Later, I found this to be a hindrance to my testimony. At teacher's college, I met with, talked to, and prayed with a person who happened to be Greek Orthodox. He prayed, and I prayed for his salvation. Suddenly he arose from his knees and acted quite coldly toward me. Later, I discovered that he thought I was trying to make a Baptist out of him! Later, I left the Baptist church and became a non-denominational Christian.

My only caveat is that the goal is not baptism but sanctification, so what are we to make of those who have not been baptized properly or at all, yet show every sign they have been regenerated?

I don't know what to make of them. I know many such. The Salvation Army does not practise baptism at all, claiming that only a "spiritual baptism" is necessary. Yet I know or knew a number of persons among them who seem to be quite fervent Christians. One local member of the "Church of Christ" in seeing so many people who, as you say, showed "every sign that they had been regenerated" let go of his belief in the necessity of baptism for regeneration, and became in all respects just like any other evangelical in our area. So I guess I have come to the point where I realize that I don't have to assess the matter. Each person "before his own maker will stand ... or fall."

Justin Martyr who lived in the second century wrote this explanation of baptism in his Apology:

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be begotten again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

Finally, I do agree with you that if one truly repents, it will indeed lead to a change of behaviour. As you know, John the baptizer urged those who repented to "do deeds worthy of repentance".

[steve7150]

Salvation from sin does NOT refer to Christ paying for our sins. No one can pay for anyone else's sins. Furthermore sins don't require being paid for. The person who commits them requires regeneration so that he ceases from sin.









According to Isaiah 53 it sounds like sins do have to be paid for "he was pierced for our transgressions , he was crushed for our iniquities , the punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed" 53.5

Matthew thought Isa 53 was speaking of Jesus as he references it concerning Jesus healing people, "This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah , He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases" Matt 8.17.

I certainly agree with regeneration and sanctification but the idea of a substitutionary sacrifice originated with the tabernacle which had 50 chapters reference it whereas the creation of the universe had two chapters.

Jesus said that one who has been forgiven much will love much, which may mean much forgiveness is the motivation for regeneration and sanctification.