A few days ago, I listened to Steve’s “Three Views of Hell” audio files, and I appreciated the information that he humbly conveyed. Below is my true story that is a little bit related to Steve‘s lecture.
I was 32 years old in 1981. At about that time, a Christian man of about my age, but having very few worldly resources compared to me, appeared inside the church building where I fellowshipped. He was on foot. He was earnestly wanting to live in all ways like he believed Jesus was prescribing for believers. He was diligently studying the Bible.
He had become a Christian a few years earlier, after his involuntary involvement in some way in the Vietnam war. After some months of visiting me in my apartment, he arrived for a visit one day and suddenly asked me to pray for one of his buddies who had died either during or after the war. He sorrowfully recounted how he and his buddy had drunk and caroused together. He was sorrowful that his buddy had died, perhaps without ever becoming a Christian; whereas he himself had become a Christian after they had parted.
He wanted me to pray for the salvation of his dead buddy. I explained that, based on the Bible, it was too late for me to pray for his buddy. I quoted, "And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, …" Heb 9:27
He lived for only about two years after I first met him. He died from accidental asphyxiation. In the years since then, I came to realize that he was, in many ways, very much like Jesus.
In later years, I slowly came to understand that my friend’s request to me was his expression of Christ’s love for his friend. I could have prayed for his friend in about 1981, as he requested, even though my personal theological understanding did not permit me to pray for the salvation of someone who had already died.
Within the last few months (about 30 years later), I decided that I would pray for the salvation of his friend. My understanding of God’s ways was and is not complete. At age 62, I decided that I would, in this matter, err on the side of love. God understands.
Compassion when looking backward in time
Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
Hi Ralph-
Thanks so much for posting this. I found it very encouraging.
TK
Thanks so much for posting this. I found it very encouraging.
TK
Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
Within the last few months (about 30 years later), I decided that I would pray for the salvation of his friend. My understanding of God’s ways was and is not complete. At age 62, I decided that I would, in this matter, err on the side of love. God understands.
Ralph
As Paul says "love always wins" plus the judgment we are subject to, may allow for restoration and not just punishment.
Ralph
As Paul says "love always wins" plus the judgment we are subject to, may allow for restoration and not just punishment.
Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
As Paul says "love always wins"
Where do we find that Paul said "love always wins"?
So would we then conclude that the Mormon practice of baptizing for the dead is a commendable act of love; that God will understand?In later years, I slowly came to understand that my friend’s request to me was his expression of Christ’s love for his friend. I could have prayed for his friend in about 1981, as he requested, even though my personal theological understanding did not permit me to pray for the salvation of someone who had already died.
Within the last few months (about 30 years later), I decided that I would pray for the salvation of his friend. My understanding of God’s ways was and is not complete. At age 62, I decided that I would, in this matter, err on the side of love. God understands.
If the practice of praying for the lost in hell to be saved became widespread among Christians, would this discourage some who might otherwise repent in this life, thinking they will get saved afterward?
Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
Rather than attempting to directly answer your questions, I have, instead, added some additional thoughts that might be helpful in an indirect way.
We do not now know whether my friend’s buddy trusted in Jesus Christ before he died. We do not now know what the Lord may be doing with and for him.
We also do not now know about the salvation of thousands of other people (now either living or dead) that we see, saw, know, or knew. Some of them remain strangers to us. Sometimes we remember specific people and we pray for them, even though we are not certain that all of them are still alive. We err on the side of love. We know that God understands our motives; and we do not fear making a mistake, because such prayers are not selfish.
The Lord is able to hear and understand desperate, bold pleas from His people who cry to Him in faith, despite their limited understandings of His ways.
We pray boldly for the immense needs of the peoples of the world. We may not know what God does with those prayers; but we ask in faith, knowing the immense power of God to act in ways beyond our comprehension, and knowing the love that He continues to pour out to and through us.
We do not now know whether my friend’s buddy trusted in Jesus Christ before he died. We do not now know what the Lord may be doing with and for him.
We also do not now know about the salvation of thousands of other people (now either living or dead) that we see, saw, know, or knew. Some of them remain strangers to us. Sometimes we remember specific people and we pray for them, even though we are not certain that all of them are still alive. We err on the side of love. We know that God understands our motives; and we do not fear making a mistake, because such prayers are not selfish.
The Lord is able to hear and understand desperate, bold pleas from His people who cry to Him in faith, despite their limited understandings of His ways.
We pray boldly for the immense needs of the peoples of the world. We may not know what God does with those prayers; but we ask in faith, knowing the immense power of God to act in ways beyond our comprehension, and knowing the love that He continues to pour out to and through us.
Ralph
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jriccitelli
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Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
Prayers for the dead: I was thinking on this, while I was thinking on Christian Universalism.
I have 'not' always been as ‘sympathetic’ in my theology towards 'the unreached and unbelievers', as I am today. This group of people I am sympathetic towards are those who would be defined as people who;
A. May have embraced the Gospel but never had the chance. And also;
B. Those who may have accepted given better opportunities, or more time to accept the Gospel.
After my father died I have understood the ‘hope’ that many have, the ‘hope’ that a person may find grace with God even if they never actually confessed their faith or belief in the atonement.
I have always kept this hope under a cover, for I know the Bible does not ‘promote’ much hope for the sinner without an atonement made for their sin. And it has been given as a ‘command’ to accept and believe in His sacrifice, that Christ died so that all who would 'Believe' would have forgiveness of sins through 'Faith'.
So my ‘hope’ for my Dad is based on two biblical truths, 1. God is Good, and 2. God can do whatever He wants. But these are aspects of Gods character, and not the sum total of His character. God must be Just in the judgment of sin, and True to His own Words of ‘warning’ and ‘commands to repent’.
I consider this idea to be a hope for something, for which we have not been given any ‘solid’ scriptural support. In fact this idea is opposed to commands for repentance, atonement, belief, punishment, hell, holiness, testing, etc. And it is opposed to the ‘overwhelming’ warnings to the unrepentant sinner and ‘page after page’ of detailed descriptions of Gods judgments and punishment of sinners and such.
On the other hand…
I have 'not' always been as ‘sympathetic’ in my theology towards 'the unreached and unbelievers', as I am today. This group of people I am sympathetic towards are those who would be defined as people who;
A. May have embraced the Gospel but never had the chance. And also;
B. Those who may have accepted given better opportunities, or more time to accept the Gospel.
After my father died I have understood the ‘hope’ that many have, the ‘hope’ that a person may find grace with God even if they never actually confessed their faith or belief in the atonement.
I have always kept this hope under a cover, for I know the Bible does not ‘promote’ much hope for the sinner without an atonement made for their sin. And it has been given as a ‘command’ to accept and believe in His sacrifice, that Christ died so that all who would 'Believe' would have forgiveness of sins through 'Faith'.
So my ‘hope’ for my Dad is based on two biblical truths, 1. God is Good, and 2. God can do whatever He wants. But these are aspects of Gods character, and not the sum total of His character. God must be Just in the judgment of sin, and True to His own Words of ‘warning’ and ‘commands to repent’.
I consider this idea to be a hope for something, for which we have not been given any ‘solid’ scriptural support. In fact this idea is opposed to commands for repentance, atonement, belief, punishment, hell, holiness, testing, etc. And it is opposed to the ‘overwhelming’ warnings to the unrepentant sinner and ‘page after page’ of detailed descriptions of Gods judgments and punishment of sinners and such.
On the other hand…
Last edited by jriccitelli on Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
On the other hand, I will say that, with caution, I think it is ok to ask God to have mercy on those departed. I understand the feeling and desires that develop when we love and know people who died w/o the opportunity or the time to accept the Gospel. (Including those who may not have shown enough evidence to 'assure' us of their faith)
I think this should be for personal acquaintances only, someone 'you' knew, but I think I would rather tell a person I dont feel right about it, but that they could pray for their friend.
Back to ‘the other hand’ I think it very wrong to 'continually' pray for them.
I felt all right in making such a desire known to God, especially while grieving, but to continue would be asking for our will upon His, and petitioning over something clearly beyond our understanding and place.
I am very familiar with Catholic prayers for the dead, and the Mormon baptisms for the dead.
Both practices being unbiblical and I feel very misguided and misleading.
In fact it depreciates the demands and urgency and Gospel. I see that it also reinforces a belief that ignorance is as good as truth. It also may condone the willful obedience to falsehood that is so prevalent and gravely dangerous. For willful ignorance of truth and acceptance of falsehood is commonly being masqueraded as sincerity.
Both Paul and Moses expressed sympathy for their unbelieving kinsmen;
Exodus 32: 11-14, Numbers 14:11-31 both should be read, but these people were still alive. Paul intercedes for them also in Romans 9:1-2, 10:1, alive and dead. And David’s prayer in 2 Samuel 12:22-23 is revealing, note he gets up, dressed, and eats and leaves the matter in Gods hands. And that is the end of the matter for David. To continue interceding is not to have heard what God has written, and He ‘has’ heard us. We need to focus on the living, There does not seem to be anything biblical about prayers for the dead, judgement seems sealed at death., as Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.
I think this should be for personal acquaintances only, someone 'you' knew, but I think I would rather tell a person I dont feel right about it, but that they could pray for their friend.
Back to ‘the other hand’ I think it very wrong to 'continually' pray for them.
I felt all right in making such a desire known to God, especially while grieving, but to continue would be asking for our will upon His, and petitioning over something clearly beyond our understanding and place.
I am very familiar with Catholic prayers for the dead, and the Mormon baptisms for the dead.
Both practices being unbiblical and I feel very misguided and misleading.
In fact it depreciates the demands and urgency and Gospel. I see that it also reinforces a belief that ignorance is as good as truth. It also may condone the willful obedience to falsehood that is so prevalent and gravely dangerous. For willful ignorance of truth and acceptance of falsehood is commonly being masqueraded as sincerity.
Both Paul and Moses expressed sympathy for their unbelieving kinsmen;
Exodus 32: 11-14, Numbers 14:11-31 both should be read, but these people were still alive. Paul intercedes for them also in Romans 9:1-2, 10:1, alive and dead. And David’s prayer in 2 Samuel 12:22-23 is revealing, note he gets up, dressed, and eats and leaves the matter in Gods hands. And that is the end of the matter for David. To continue interceding is not to have heard what God has written, and He ‘has’ heard us. We need to focus on the living, There does not seem to be anything biblical about prayers for the dead, judgement seems sealed at death., as Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.
Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
As Paul says "love always wins"
Where do we find that Paul said "love always wins"?
My bad, "love never fails" 1st Cor 13.8 . Think about it Homer, it's like confirming God's will, will not fail.
Where do we find that Paul said "love always wins"?
My bad, "love never fails" 1st Cor 13.8 . Think about it Homer, it's like confirming God's will, will not fail.
Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
If you said "God always wins" I would agree.My bad, "love never fails" 1st Cor 13.8 . Think about it Homer, it's like confirming God's will, will not fail.
I think you all know by now that I am convinced universalism is false. But I will say that, although I do not believe God's "time" is the same as our "time", I do believe it is possible that our prayers might affect the fate of the dead. (I say this as a bare possibility.) It seems to me that judgement day has not yet come for anyone. Jesus indicated this will occur on some future day (John 5:28-29). On that day some will be judged worthy of eternal life, others will be condemned. And for those condemned, Jesus the judge has the option of mercy. That is the only hope I see for the lost. We can pray for God to have mercy on a person, but then that may not make a difference because God is merciful.
Re: Compassion when looking backward in time
It would seem that a primary tenet of those who strongly affirm UR would in fact be that we should be praying for those in hell; however I really do not think I have come across this idea in any of the UR literature I have read. Until now, I do not believe it has been discussed before on this forum. I may be wrong about this, but I don't recall any such discussions.
Secondly, it would seem that the Bible does not saying anything about praying for the dead; whether this works against UR is debatable, I suppose.
I am sympathetic toward UR, if not convinced, but the lack of any instruction in the Bible that we should be praying for the unbelieving dead (for their salvation, just as we would pray for those who are living) is something I have not considered and it seems it must be considered.
TK
Secondly, it would seem that the Bible does not saying anything about praying for the dead; whether this works against UR is debatable, I suppose.
I am sympathetic toward UR, if not convinced, but the lack of any instruction in the Bible that we should be praying for the unbelieving dead (for their salvation, just as we would pray for those who are living) is something I have not considered and it seems it must be considered.
TK