Am I to understand that you read your bible and never notice the numerous threats and warnings, along with the promises if we do well? Perhaps there is another version I'm unaware of. One of the commentators I read once said if all the threats and warnings were removed about 1/3 of the scriptures would be missing.
There are plenty of threats of destruction Homer, which makes perfect sense and is logical. I have no problem with destruction or hell or the lake of fire if it serves justice and i hope is also redemptive.
Eternal hell on the other hand is cruel,vindictive and mindless and as you certainly know we disagree on the english translation of several greek words that make an eternity of difference.
Those who never hear the Gospel
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
Sorry for misunderstanding you Homer.
And your mentioning 2 Corinthians 8:12 was helpful. I hadn`t thought of that.
And your mentioning 2 Corinthians 8:12 was helpful. I hadn`t thought of that.
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
I find many on this forum, from all sides of the argument, to be too convinced of their own position. So few people open enough to really listen and evaluate other peoples viewpoints and honestly admit that they (themselves) are fallible. It discourages me from participating in the dialogue.
I met a guy on another forum a couple of years ago who occasionally posted but never really disclosed how he felt about hell and judgment. He revealed that he did indeed change his mind and leaned toward CU after never even knowing that this point of view even existed before he came here. So it's not really that important about winning the argument, i think it's about presenting your position so that the non-participant can evaluate scripture from more then one point of view. I also think it's important to present God's character as revealed in Jesus even if it appears no one else gets it.
I met a guy on another forum a couple of years ago who occasionally posted but never really disclosed how he felt about hell and judgment. He revealed that he did indeed change his mind and leaned toward CU after never even knowing that this point of view even existed before he came here. So it's not really that important about winning the argument, i think it's about presenting your position so that the non-participant can evaluate scripture from more then one point of view. I also think it's important to present God's character as revealed in Jesus even if it appears no one else gets it.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
This question comes up alot in my rounds. I agree with many listeners here that 'eternal' may not refer to our 'punishment' as eternal but that 'death' is eternal. And that 'the fire' is eternal, and since fire speaks of destruction I believe ultimately that everything of this world, including the unrepentant will be 'annihilated'. I accept people who hold the traditional view of 'eternal suffering', because 'either way' God has issued a solemn warning that mankind needs to 'repent' or we will be punished each for our own sins. Some such as the false prophets and demons will recieve 'eternal' punishment and are put into the lake of fire. And everyone else will also be punished 'justly' as God promised (Then 'I' believe after suffering our due penalty for wrongs done, eventually 'annihilation'). I consider God being 'just' in punishing sin, and fairness in punishment is logical, so God speaks of 'degrees' of punishment 'fitting the sin' throughout the Bible. In the Law a man repaid for wrongs done according to the wrong done as in Exodus chap.21-22. Jesus also refers to degrees of punishment, as someone here quoted 'that servant will recieve many stripes, another fewer stripes', 'and an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth'. But since 'how long' and 'what' are different questions than 'who' will be punished or saved, I will seperate this from my finite opinion of 'who' have never heard the Gospel.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
Eternal life is not a right, God gave everyone a life they live it and die, this is the promise made in the Garden of Eden. You had a life, what did you do with it? People seem to demand eternal life of God, yet I certainly cannot see why God would want mankind around eternally after observing our behavior here. Most humans I know are 'nice and good' but I know we are 'also' pretty selfish and prone to vanity and lust. I would not want to live forever with mankind the way he is. I think most people believe there is a heaven that welcomes them just as they are, there they will live blissful lives, shopping and watching football for eternity never considering 'why God created the Earth' or what He may have in mind as a purpose for creation. I certainly do not want to live forever with myself the way I am, why would God? God is watching and testing the heart to see who will consider creation, and who it is that created it. Most civilizations back to the dawn of our existense have realized there is something far greater than us. This is evident in most all ancient religions. This is evident to all I think, but how many really care? Even in 'enlightened' societys how many people do I know that seek after God, most everyone I know are more interested in TV, music, partying and recreation when they have free time. Even with a cross on every gravestone and churchs on every corner Gods Judgment and his Gospel is still rejected in favor of 'tradition', 'religious tolerance', 'openmindedness', and 'willful ignorance', because we go about "not knowing Gods righteousness, and seeking to establish our own" righteousness (Romans 10:3). Like the ten Lepers that were healed only one came back to thank Jesus. The Bible clearly states that this life is a test, that seems to be the only reason for God keeping Himself hidden, yet His Word is not hidden. Jesus was revealed, and although we no longer know Him after the flesh, His Good News is not hidden. There are churchs on every corner throughout the western world, yet no one pays them any attention anymore, especially in Europe. There are church building throughout the world in the most remote places, mabey no longer occupied, it shows man is not generally interested in truth or Jesus, at least not for long. Humans ignore and resist the words of the Bible, they fight and kill those who have come to present the gospel, as in China, Russia and the Mideast today. Even in 'peaceful' India it is becoming unsafe to preach the Gospel.
There really are only two alternatives in judgment; works or grace. Every human will be judged according to their works, good or bad (Romans 2:6-7). So good luck to all humans, If God forgives all your sins good for you, but I do not think it is good for a society to suppose God just acts as though sin never happens and we can get away with it for eternity. The message is 'God paid an enourmous price for our sins, do we care?' The person who has never heard that God paid a penalty for sins maybe less fortunate than one who has, but rejecting it may incur another sin itself. it seems unfortunate that we all suffer misfourtune and missed opportunities because of the failures of other humans, sometimes from our own family and nation, but this seems to be part of the whole lesson of mankind that will forever be told. (I personally think and hope there are people who have never 'heard' and yet seek after righteousness, but I dont see too many people here in my world like that. I think God is merciful but I would not want to trust in 'my' own goodness to gain Gods favor on me, that is why I need to share the news of the Gospel)
There really are only two alternatives in judgment; works or grace. Every human will be judged according to their works, good or bad (Romans 2:6-7). So good luck to all humans, If God forgives all your sins good for you, but I do not think it is good for a society to suppose God just acts as though sin never happens and we can get away with it for eternity. The message is 'God paid an enourmous price for our sins, do we care?' The person who has never heard that God paid a penalty for sins maybe less fortunate than one who has, but rejecting it may incur another sin itself. it seems unfortunate that we all suffer misfourtune and missed opportunities because of the failures of other humans, sometimes from our own family and nation, but this seems to be part of the whole lesson of mankind that will forever be told. (I personally think and hope there are people who have never 'heard' and yet seek after righteousness, but I dont see too many people here in my world like that. I think God is merciful but I would not want to trust in 'my' own goodness to gain Gods favor on me, that is why I need to share the news of the Gospel)
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
The Bible clearly states that this life is a test, that seems to be the only reason for God keeping Himself hidden, yet His Word is not hidden. Jesus was revealed, and although we no longer know Him after the flesh, His Good News is not hidden. There are churchs on every corner throughout the western world, yet no one pays them any attention anymore, especially in Europe.
Yes this life is a test but i don't think people are much different toward God then Adam and Eve were. Eve knew God's command but she followed her passions, Adam knew God's command but hearkened to the voice of his wife. They were'nt distracted by i-phones,computers,movies or TV yet they managed to disobey a single command from God after they heard his voice. Very very few people seek God perhaps because we seem to be a slave to our passions, just like Eve was.
Yes this life is a test but i don't think people are much different toward God then Adam and Eve were. Eve knew God's command but she followed her passions, Adam knew God's command but hearkened to the voice of his wife. They were'nt distracted by i-phones,computers,movies or TV yet they managed to disobey a single command from God after they heard his voice. Very very few people seek God perhaps because we seem to be a slave to our passions, just like Eve was.