UR

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

Some will argue that the Greek word "κολασις" (kolasis) in verse 46 should be translated "punishment", and it is so translated in many versions of the Bible. But the word was originally used in respect to pruning plants. Plants are pruned in order to correct their growth. So the word later was used figuratively in reference to correction of people.

But isn't it true that kolasis was used for pruning because it meant to cut off? Which would fit quite well with the picture Jesus presents in John 15:1-6 of unfruitful people being as branches that are removed and cast into the fire. Not a picture of a process of rehabilitation of individuals, but of the church. I think you can count kolasis as favoring the annihilationist position.

And for your further consideration:

Moulton & Milligan, BAGD, and Thayer list dozens of occurrences of KOLASIS in late classical and early Christian documents, and cite "punishment" as the proper translation in each case. There are no other meanings listed for KOLASIS in any of these lexicons. Here is just one example from Moulton and Milligan: "for the evil doers among men receive their reward not among the living only, but also await punishment (KOLASIN) and much torment" (Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 840).

So the UR position depends on two words in one sentence being given a dubious meaning.

Blessings, Homer

[Paidion]

Robertson seems to disagree with you on both counts:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta ... 25-46.html

Thayer also:
aionios: without beginning and end; or, without beginning; or, without end.
kolasis: correction, punishment, penalty.

Would you mind sharing with us the source of your Greek scholarship?

Most of my understanding of Greek words comes from searching for the the word in the New Testament, the Septuagint, early Christian writers, and secular Greek sources. From its context, one can determine how it is used.

For example consider the phrase "προ χρονων αἰωνιων" found in I Tim 1:9 and Titus 1:2. (Note: "αἰωνιων" is the genitive case of "αἰωνιoς", the case which follows the preposition "προ"). If this word were translated as "eternal", then the phrase would mean "before eternal times". In the Calvin Bible, it is actually translated that way. What could that possibly mean? It is said that that which is "eternal" is without beginning or ending. So how could something happen before eternity? Or if eternity is outside of time, then how could there be "eternal times"? But substitute "before lasting times" and you have a sensible phrase. The RSV, ESV, and NIV translate the phrase as "ages ago". That's not too bad, but not exactly literal. Perhaps "before all ages" would be more accurate. There is absolutely no justification for the AV and KJ21 for translating it as "before the world began". A Greek word for "world" does not occur in the phrase. The NKJV translates it as "before time began". This is far from the meaning of the phrase, and is also illogical. How can there be a time before time began?

But in asking for the "source" of my Greek scholarship, I can only say that I have studied the language for several years, both formally and on my own. If you are looking for an "expert's" opinion, you will find that Abbot-Smith's "Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament" gives "age-long" as one of the definitions of "αἰωνιoς". Rotherham translates the phrase as "before age-enduring times".

As for "κολασις", you quoted Thayer as giving "correction" as one of the meanings. So does Abbot-Smith. In addition Abott-Smith's lexicon give the following note: "Aristotle distinguishes between 'κολασις' as that which, being disciplinary, has reference to the sufferer, and 'τιμωρια' as that which, being penal, has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts. But in late Greek, the distinction is not always maintained." This final sentence implies that the distinction is sometimes made even in late Greek. The text in Matthew 25 may be one of those times where the meaning is "correction." For if its meaning referred to everlasting punishment in hell, then "τιμωρια" more likely would have been Matthew's word of choice.

[Todd]

John 3:16 for example.

Can any of you shed some light on this?

RV

RV,

Since you mention this verse... here is an interesting perspective on this. Most people assume the word "perish" refers to un-ending punishment as an alternative to "un-ending life". I think the parable of the prodigal son is the "rosetta stone" which explains this whole concept. When the prodigal son had wasted his inheritance and found himself wallowing in the mire of his own self indulgence (he had reaped what he sowed) we are told that he was "lost". "Lost" is translated from the Greek word “apollumi.” This is the same word which is often translated as "perish" (as in John 3:16) or "destroy." Notice that the prodigal son was not dead, judged and in hell; rather, he was quite alive, but he was suffering the consequences of his own error (God's punishment for him). He later was restored to his father once he "came to himself" and repented.

Luke 15:32
But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost [apollumi] and is found.

Follow this link to find out more about “apollumi.”

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm

Todd

[RV]

Todd... thanks. I could read a thousand more of those. Got any more?

RV

[backwoodsman]

But in asking for the "source" of my Greek scholarship, I can only say that I have studied the language for several years, both formally and on my own.

My concern is that you seem to come to different conclusions than scholars for whom New Testament Greek was a life's work, or a big part of it. That seems unwise, at best, without very, very solid reasons.

It is said that that which is "eternal" is without beginning or ending.

Again, Thayer says that's one of 3 possible meanings; it can also mean without beginning, or without end, i.e. eternal in one direction or the other, but not both.

For example consider the phrase "προ χρονων αἰωνιων" found in [2] Tim 1:9 and Titus 1:2. ..[chomp].. The NKJV translates it as "before time began". This is far from the meaning of the phrase, and is also illogical.

"Before time began" is exactly what it means, and makes perfect sense within Thayer's possible meanings of aionios. One simply has to pick from the possible meanings the one that fits. Robertson renders it, "before times eternal," which also works well. You're correct that there's no textual justification for the KJV's "before the world began."

As for "κολασις", you quoted Thayer as giving "correction" as one of the meanings.

Yes -- one POSSIBLE meaning. Is that possibility enough on which to hang a doctrine like UR? I'll defer to Robertson, who knows not only the dictionary definition, but grammar, idioms, etc. He addresses the UR argument that some make in Matthew 25:46, and disagrees.

The text in Matthew 25 may be one of those times where the meaning is "correction." For if its meaning referred to everlasting punishment in hell, then "τιμωρια" more likely would have been Matthew's word of choice.

Whatever the time element of hell turns out to be, there will be nothing vengeful about it on God's part, and he'll draw no satisfaction from the suffering inflicted. Both would be contrary to both love and justice, which are clearly revealed in scripture as elements of his character. Hence timoria would've been inappropriate here.

God bless,
Dan

[Todd]

Todd... thanks. I could read a thousand more of those. Got any more?

RV

Here's a quote you might find interesting.

Perhaps the Ultra-Universalist position on "eternal life" would make more sense to you if we started referring to it a bit more accurately. Even Robin Parry himself acknowledged in his book that the Greek expression translated as "eternal life" in most English translations (zoen aionion) "may be better translated as 'the life of the age to come'" (p. 147). I agree with him. Moreover, as I'm sure you're aware, aionios is an adjective form of the Greek noun aion, and means "pertaining to, or belonging to, an age" (again, Parry notes on the same page that "there seems to be a strong case for maintaining that [aionios] means 'pertaining to an age'"). Like all adjectives, aionios cannot pertain to something other than the noun from which it was derived. If the Greek noun aion means "age," then the Greek adjective aionios (and any other derivative of aion) cannot pertain to something other than or greater than an "age." So, the question that should then be asked is, "To what age does the 'life of the age' pertain or belong?" Answer: it can be none other than the age of the Messianic reign, which is the age that began when the age in which Christ and his disciples were living (i.e., the age under the Law of Moses) ended (Matt 24:3; cf. Matt 16:28). It is the age of the Messianic reign that was referred to as "the age to come," and associated with "the life of the age" (Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Heb 6:6; etc.).

And while Parry goes on to say that "the age to come is everlasting" (p. 148), I would argue that, while the kingdom of God is certainly endless, the age during which Christ reigns over the kingdom is not. For we are told by Paul that Christ's reign is in fact to come to an end when (or shortly after) the dead are raised (1 Cor 15:21-28). Just before God becomes "all in all" we are told that Christ is to deliver the kingdom back to God (which he received from the Father at the commencement of his reign). So if Christ's reign over the kingdom is not endless, it follows that the age which, in the NT, is identified with his reign, cannot be endless either. And I submit that the "life" that may be enjoyed by believers during the age of the Messianic reign is a blessing that can only be enjoyed by faith (which includes the obedience that faith produces). This spiritual blessing cannot be enjoyed any longer than the age lasts with which it is so closely associated, nor can it be enjoyed when faith is no longer possible to exercise. This, of course, doesn't mean there will no longer be any more joy or peace or righteousness after the resurrection; it simply means that the enjoyment of these blessings won't be called "the life of the age" any longer, because both the age in which this blessing may be enjoyed, as well as the condition for receiving this blessing, will have ceased to be.

Todd

[Homer]

Hi Todd,

In your last post I noticed this in the quotation:

Like all adjectives, aionios cannot pertain to something other than the noun from which it was derived. If the Greek noun aion means "age," then the Greek adjective aionios (and any other derivative of aion) cannot pertain to something other than or greater than an "age."

I don't know who the quote is from, but I immediately questioned the validity of the statement. It is demonstrably false. Many adjectives come to have a different meaning than the nouns or verbs they are derived from. For example, our word "ordinary", meaning customary, usual, or regular, comes to us from a noun that once meant "a body of persons living under a religious order". And the word "manly" refers to a quality that means more than being a male. The adjective "brown" comes from the verb "burn", and "green" comes to us from the verb "grow".

Not taking Paidion's side here , but if the statement from the quote is correct, he could never argue that aionios means "lasting".

God bless, Homer

[Todd]

I don't know who the quote is from, but I immediately questioned the validity of the statement. It is demonstrably false.

Hi Homer,

You may be correct in your objection to the assertion made here, but I don't think it harms his explanation much if sometimes words change meaning over a period of time. It doesn't necessarily follow that aionios is one of those which meaning had changed by the time the NT was written. However, it is entirely possible that the meaning which most people today attribute to it (forever or un-ending) is changed from when the Bible authors used it.

Todd

[Todd]

Regarding the term "eternal life", many people today understand this to mean "live forever" or "un-ending life", whereas the literal translation is "the life of the age". The age this refers to is the church age. So, one way to look at this is that "the life of the age" is the kind of life that is available to anyone who lives by faith in Christ during the entire church age.

As I see it, there is one simple way to view this. I think we can all agree that one can be dead (i.e., spiritually dead) while still being physically alive. Here are a couple of scriptures for this.

1 Tim 5:6
But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.
Colossians 2:13a
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh...

I also think we can agree that one, through faith in Christ, can be delivered from this spiritual death unto life.

Colossians 2:13a
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Eph 2:1
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Neither of these conditions (spiritual death or life) is speaking of our physical bodies, but it refers to our faithful walk with God (or lack thereof). One who is spritually dead lives while being condemned by the Spirit; conversely, those who are spiritually alive are affirmed and spiritually blessed by the same Spirit. This is eternal life (the life of the age). To be alive in Christ is to enjoy the fruits of the Spirit which is a special gift to those who have "the life of the age" (eternal life). It does not describe the length of one's life but the quality of it.

Now, concerning the resurrection, as I have said before, to live forever is to have immortality. This is the term the New Testament uses to describe our physical existance post resurrection.

Todd