No Promise of Eternal Life!

[Paidion]

Look to Jesus wrote: Question: Is it possible that the phrase "lasting life", to the first century inhabitants of Palestine, may have been understood as we understand eternal to mean? Or is there any reason to exclude that possibilty? It seems clear to me that the N.T. as a whole would indicate that believer's will live forever with God.



As I understand the Greek phrase, the meaning is "lasting life". I pointed out a couple of times that the word "lasting" may denote both things eternal, and things not eternal. I think the first century inhabitants of Palestine understood the word as "lasting". This fact doesn't imply that they thought the believer's life with God would come to an end. But I doubt that they derived that belief from the phrase "lasting life", but rather from other considerations.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

I clearly stated in my post that "aiōnios" means "lasting" or "durable" and referred to classic Greek literature as verification of the fact.

Aionios may well have been used at one time to mean "lasting" but this is in no way determinative as to what the biblical writers meant by it. Your view of the meaning is determined by your universalism; if the word means eternal, as the vast majority of lexicons state, your system is invalidated. Even your universalist Thayer renders the primary meaning of the word "without beginning or end, that which has been and always will be". You certainly can not claim bias on his part.

And you wrote:

I think the first century inhabitants of Palestine understood the word as "lasting". This fact doesn't imply that they thought the believer's life with God would come to an end. But I doubt that they derived that belief from the phrase "lasting life", but rather from other considerations.

It is good that you say "I think" and "I doubt". where is your evidence?


Just like old times, huh?

P.S. I'm curious about how you view this statement by Ignatius, a 1st century church father (executed 107AD) where he contrasts aionios with temporary:

....from Ignatius (translation can be found at http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nice ... Chapter_XI.)

φεύγετε καὶ τὰ τοῦ πονηροῦ ἔγγονα Θεόδοτον καὶ Κλεόβουλον, τὰ γεννῶντα καρπὸν θανατηφόρον, οὗ ἐάν τις γεύσηται, παραυτίκα ἀποθνήσκει οὐ τὸν πρόσκαιρον θάνατον, ἀλλὰ τὸν αἰώνιον.

"dies not the temporary death but the aionios death"

I have shown you in the past incontrovertable quotes from the earliest church fathers that showed their belief in eternal punishment yet you claim the belief came much later.

[Paidion]

For those who wish to investigate the meanings of "aiōn" and "aiōnios", I suggest reading the following book written in 1875. Be sure to read it thoroughly right to the end. It contains many references to these two words as used the the early Hebrews, early, middle, and late Greek writers (including Josephus), New Testament writers, and Christian writers from the second to 6th centuries.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

Noticed you did not reply to my quote of Ignatius but instead asked us to read a book written by a universalist. For those interested in this subject I would recommend the following forum where some learned people, including from your Tentmaker universalists, discuss the subject, its where my quote came from:

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... f=6&t=9602

[Todd]

The fact that torture is an unrighteous act, and that unending torture is infinitely unrighteous, should enable one to conclude that eternal torment is not something that God sanctions. Those who believe in Conditional Immortality realize this and thus have come up with an alternate interpretation. Christian Universalists have also come up with an alternate interpretation. However, both these alternate views still believe that God engages in a limited post-death period of torment. I believe the Spirit affirms that any amount of torture is wrong, and therefore not something sanctioned by God.

Matt 5
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven;.....48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Todd

[steve7150]

Hi Paidion,

Noticed you did not reply to my quote of Ignatius but instead asked us to read a book written by a universalist. For those interested in this subject I would recommend the following forum where some learned people, including from your Tentmaker universalists, discuss the subject, its where my quote came from:






Homer,
I think the vast majority of universalists did'nt begin that way but migrated over time as they weighed the biblical evidence. I also think the vast majority of traditional eternal torment believers were brought up that way and just accepted it as God's righteous punishment on the wicked unbelievers. The lexicon writers are going to be influenced by their traditional backround as we all are.
According to a book i'm reading about Universalism by Eric Stetson some early church fathers who believed this way were Saint Irenaeus, Saint Theophilus, Saint Clement of Alexandria and his student Origen who wrote the first systematic commentary and exegises of the entire bible. According to Stetson the real father of the eternal torment view is Augustine who institutionalized it.
Another point i think is important to consider is that there is not a hint of eternal torment in the OT which is the first 2/3 of the bible , and that is what Jesus quoted these supposed references to eternal torment from. Somehow the meaning changed from these OT phrases which often were quoted verbatim by Jesus.

[Todd]

Another point i think is important to consider is that there is not a hint of eternal torment in the OT which is the first 2/3 of the bible

Steve7150,

The OT doesn't teach any post-death torment.

Todd

[steve7150]

Steve7150,

The OT doesn't teach any post-death torment.



While i agree God does'nt torture or torment people Daniel 12.2 seems to indicate the condition that many are raised to, needs to be changed. The question is how which isn't answered in the OT.
However the references Jesus used either meant death or destruction in the OT , so did Jesus intend to change the meaning that the OT prophets used when his immediate audience were folks who only had a knowledge of the OT.
How did the meanings change? Did Jesus change the meanings with no warning or did pagans import this eternal hell belief into the NT from their pagan philosophies?

[Homer]

Hi Todd,

You wrote:

The fact that torture is an unrighteous act, and that unending torture is infinitely unrighteous, should enable one to conclude that eternal torment is not something that God sanctions. Those who believe in Conditional Immortality realize this and thus have come up with an alternate interpretation.

While I find in the scriptures that the state of the lost is unending after this life, and perhaps before this life ends there is no longer an opportunity for repentance, I have never said I believed in torture for the lost. To me that is a straw-man argument. And whether the torment might be mental I can not say. "Outer darkness" appears to be stated more often than "hell fire", and what that means we are not told. I am not a Jonathan Edwards "hell-fire" fan, and am not sure there is enough data to determine whether conditional imortality or a more traditional view is correct.

As I have said before, the universalist position is one of the poorest supported doctrines I have come across. It appears to me to be little more than philosophical ideas, with a few ambiguous scriptures, and a lot of wishful thinking. I am far from being a Calvinist, but their arguments are much stronger than the universalists IMO.

[Homer]

Why are we subjected to the tired old false claims that eternal punishment originated with Augustine? The earliest Christians believed in it:

Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2, [110 A.D.]) ''Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him.

Clement of Rome (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D.150]) ''If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest, but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment.''

(Second Clement 8:4) ''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance.''

(Second Clement 8:5) ''After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will belong to us.'' (In other words, Clement is saying that you must make the decision to believe in Christ while you are alive on this earth.)

Justin Martyr (First Apology 12 [150 A.D]) ''No more is it possible for the evil doer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of Fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments.''

Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII [150 A.D.]) ''And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment, and not only as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if anyone say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of any harm.'' (Justin is clear in stating that the punishment is eternal and not for a temporary amount of time.)

Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII [150 A.D.]) ''For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.''

Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies, 4:28:2 [189 A.D]) ''The penalty increases for those who do not believe the word of God and despise his coming. It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomever the Lord shall say,'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,'' they will be damned forever.'' (Notice the reference to Matthew 25:41)