My Case for eternal Hell

[steve7150]

That is your hermeneutic? It is wiser to refrain from being dogmatic about any interpretation if it doesn’t make sense. I would not use the word ‘all’ to reduce all previous warnings of unbelief to nothing and assert Paul is now assuring us that unbelievers will all be saved, without a much closer thought to what the context might actually be saying.




The statement that all may be saved does not contradict all the warnings in the bible about unbelief and/or disobedience as long as the punishment is not eternal. That's
what this boils down to and since it is God's will that everyone be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth is it possible for God to design a method where justice is carried out and God gets what he wants?

Can God create a pathway for these factors to merge together in the end? Can i get a vote?

[Homer]

That's what this boils down to and since it is God's will that everyone be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth is it possible for God to design a method where justice is carried out and God gets what he wants?

It is God's will that all be saved now. The verb "desires" is present indicative active which indicates God wants them saved now and says nothing about the future, whether He will still want them all to be saved post death/judgement. And given that He wants them all saved now, and they aren't all saved now shows that God's will is not always done, which is rather obvious, I think. So no, as long as man has free will, some of what God wants will not happen.


1 Timothy 2, New King James Version (NKJV)
1. Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2. for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7. for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Look at the context above. Paul urges prayer for all men, not least of all because God wants them to be saved, and Jesus is the only savior, potentially the Saviour of all men, which to me says no more than Peter:

Acts 4:12, New King James Version (NKJV)
12. Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

God is the Savior of all men because He is the only one there is.

[steve7150]

It is God's will that all be saved now. The verb "desires" is present indicative active which indicates God wants them saved now and says nothing about the future, whether He will still want them all to be saved post death/judgement. And given that He wants them all saved now, and they aren't all saved now shows that God's will is not always done, which is rather obvious, I think. So no, as long as man has free will, some of what God wants will not happen.





I tend to perceive that God always wants men to be saved whether it's now or next year or next aion. Yes the sooner the better but i don't see where God's will changes about this matter which seems very important to God.
Paul said (Rom 4) God speaks about things that are not yet as though they are meaning he can call Abram Abraham, even though he was not yet a father of many nations because when God wills something it's as good as done.
God willed that Abraham would be a father of many nations though Abraham had free will, because when God wills something it seems to be inevitable. Mans free will is
hardly an obstacle to God. Consider Paul who hated Christians through his own free will. Yet when Paul saw the risen Christ it took 30 seconds for Paul to have a life changing paradigm shift. That's the power of mans free will.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Rich I told you it does not make sense, unless it means; to treat all men equal (as the context alludes to) because God is potentially their savior, if they believe.

The word "potentially" is not in the verse. God is said to be the Savior of all people, not the "potential" Savior of all people. This implies that God saves all people. I'm content interpreting this phrase simply as it is written. God is the Savior of all. If it said, "God might become the savior of all" or "God could become the savior of all" then I would agree with you.

I do not see 4:10b as a statement 'made in passing' I see it fitting the context, and only in context does it make sense. The larger context concerning impartiality towards all men goes all the way back to 1Tim.2:1-6, which Paul picks up again in 4:4-5:21. 4:10 is very similar to his statement in 2:1-5;

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions [and] thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, [and] one mediator also between God and men, [the] man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all' (1Tim2:1-5)

Why did you not mention this in your answer?
This is all in accord with Paul's teaching all men and women are to be treated equal, and all men are to be besought in hopes that they will repent and believe, for Jesus is the Savior of all and anyone who will believe

I don't disagree with you here. I agree that when Paul says "all men" he is talking about all human beings (and that all must repent and believe). As you say, they should be treated equally, that is how I understand the character of God. He loves all people equally, and His love is limitless. It has no boundaries and is beyond our comprehension (Ephesians 3:18-19). I think the UR view is the only view that consistently portrays God as love, and one who relentlessly pursues those whom He desires to save. The other views of hell portray God as "giving up" on His creatures at some point (or even sustaining them in torture!). But God's anger only lasts a moment, but His mercy endures forever. I think His mercy will endure forever and ever until someone repents. As I continue to meditate on the infinite majestic love of God, it is difficult for me to see otherwise.

Rich thank you for answering the challenge to the context, so I really hate to criticize your answer but I notice your answer was actually only about verse 4:10, I don’t see any reference to anything surrounding verse 4:10 except your note about the idea of suffering for good (which Paul mentions in 2ndTim), yet suffering and persecution is ‘no where’ else in 1Tim (Paul is talking about labor, striving and hard work, which evidence in older manuscripts seem to indicate, strive not as in persecution but as in agonizing work). Paul ‘is’ reminding Timothy as to ‘why’ they strive ahead but what that entails you did not even touch upon. I asked about the context (?); “What is Paul is talking about from verse 4:1-5:21?” Finding context is not to “break down the verse”, Is this how you normally understand context?

No, I dont think breaking down a verse is how you interpret the context. I went into great detail why I think the context is irrelevant. I stand by my interpretation that 1 Timothy 4:10c is a comment made in passing about the character of God and the scope of His saving work. The context is all about exhortations to Timothy to teach certain things and do certain things in his leadership role. If I went into detail about everything from 4:1-5:21 I would be wasting my time because, like I said, I think the phrase "savior of all men, especially those who believe" is a statement unrelated to the context, but is given in the context of bullet-style exhortations which are jumping from topic to topic. sorry to brush over much of your arguments, but I don't see how you're applying the context in any rational way that relates to your interpretation. Perhaps I am not skilled enough to follow your reasoning. I still see the phrase as being unrelated to the context, since the context is not talking about hell or salvation at all, but the phrase touches upon the scope of God's saving work.

The verse has to agree with the command to repent and believe, it also has the biblical context of a judgment on unbelievers, note 2Thes1:8; “…dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord”
And 2Thes.3:2 notes ‘and that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith.’
The ambition and zeal to hopefully reach and teach everyman is definitely a Paulism, as is Pauls way of continuing His theme of always giving God ‘all’ praise in everything, and reminding everyone also that Christ is ‘all’ things to all men (Col. 1:17), but this amplified zeal and attribution to God should not change the exhaustive doctrines of repentance, belief and hell.

I agree that we must harmonize all the texts on the subject. I am not convinced that 2 Thessalonians 1 is talking about post Mortem judgments but it may be in reference to 70 AD, which I also think about in regards to the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25. but even if it was talking about post Mortem, it may be that the sinfulness of the person in hell is destroyed, but their soul is saved... As the word destruction is used in 1 Corinthians 5:5.

That is your hermeneutic? It is wiser to refrain from being dogmatic about any interpretation if it doesn’t make sense. I would not use the word ‘all’ to reduce all previous warnings of unbelief to nothing and assert Paul is now assuring us that unbelievers will all be saved, without a much closer thought to what the context might actually be saying.

I do not think that the concept of all being saved negates warnings of unbelief. You still appear to not understand that the UR view of hell does not eliminate the importance of being presently saved, and it is not a watered down view on the judgment of God. Hell fire is just as real in UR as it is in any other view, but certainly sin should be feared more than hell itself. Sin is the real enemy. Hell fire is the consuming presence of God, and so I'd rather be in hell with God than be apart from God in sin.

[Homer]

Rich,

In reply to JR you wrote:

The word "potentially" is not in the verse. God is said to be the Savior of all people, not the "potential" Savior of all people. This implies that God saves all people. I'm content interpreting this phrase simply as it is written. God is the Savior of all. If it said, "God might become the savior of all" or "God could become the savior of all" then I would agree with you.

When you wrote "I'm content interpreting this phrase simply as it is written. God is the Savior of all" with potentially ruled out as Paul's meaning, then Paul's words must mean that, at the time Paul wrote them, every person then living was in a state of salvation, given that "is" is in the present indicative tense in the Greek. Paul was stating the condition of things at the time he wrote.

I'm thinking that is not what you believe.

[steve7150]

When you wrote "I'm content interpreting this phrase simply as it is written. God is the Savior of all" with potentially ruled out as Paul's meaning, then Paul's words must mean that, at the time Paul wrote them, every person then living was in a state of salvation, given that "is" is in the present indicative tense in the Greek. Paul was stating the condition of things at the time he wrote.







It was Paul who wrote in Rom 4 that God speaks of things are not yet as though they are, referring to God naming Abram, Abraham.

Isaiah referred to Jesus in Isa 53 in the present tense though the fulfillment took another 750 years.

One more thing, Jesus is the same yesterday,today and forever so if he/God is the Savior of all men then limiting that one attribute to the moment Paul spoke
doesn't square.

[Homer]

So you are saying, if "potentially" is to be ruled out, that all men at all times are saved.

[steve7150]

So you are saying, if "potentially" is to be ruled out, that all men at all times are saved.









They are certainly not saved in our time perspective but from God's vantage point considering he knows the end from the beginning, he could use the present tense as a continuing time frame, not just a moment in time. I.E. "aorist tense" may simply be how time applies to God.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Rich,

In reply to JR you wrote:

The word "potentially" is not in the verse. God is said to be the Savior of all people, not the "potential" Savior of all people. This implies that God saves all people. I'm content interpreting this phrase simply as it is written. God is the Savior of all. If it said, "God might become the savior of all" or "God could become the savior of all" then I would agree with you.

When you wrote "I'm content interpreting this phrase simply as it is written. God is the Savior of all" with potentially ruled out as Paul's meaning, then Paul's words must mean that, at the time Paul wrote them, every person then living was in a state of salvation, given that "is" is in the present indicative tense in the Greek. Paul was stating the condition of things at the time he wrote.

I'm thinking that is not what you believe.

Sorry Homer, I did not see that you addressed a post to me last week. You're right. That is not what I believe. But I think Paidion's point from Hebrews 2:8 proves that something can be spoken of as being a present reality which has not yet transpired fully yet. I also have tried to explain more than once that in the English language, at least, one can use the word IS in a similar context and it could refer to a future event. It's a matter of interpretation.

You still haven't answered my question that I made previously to you. Since you believe that God was somehow the present Savior of all men at the time Paul wrote (due to your insistence of the Greek grammar, which, by the way, I am not trying to skirt by), what exactly did God save unbelievers from? Or what does God currently, for that matter, save all people from today? I'm assuming you think it is something other than a true conversion?

[jriccitelli]

I used potential to help you understand, I do not find adding the word ‘potential’ necessary at all to my understanding of the verse because the rest of the bible and Paul’s letters explicitly and the context itself give the meaning of the verse.
You keep repeating the verse as “God is the Savior of all" and you continuously leave out “especially those who believe” as if the end of the sentence is neither a part of the context. It makes no sense to add ‘especially those who believe’ if all are going to be saved anyways, Paul totally qualified ‘all’ by the words especially those who believe. And Paul totally qualified the saved already with the context, the parallel verses, his previous letters, Jesus and the whole Torah itself;

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies' (John 11)

"So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 "They shall become a sign and a wonder on you and your descendants forever. (Deuter.28:45)

'...being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned... the demonstration, , of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3. All have the potential to be saved, if they believe, this has all been been established way before Timothy)

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; (Romans 2:12)

It says here ‘all’ will perish, and ‘all’ who sinned will be judged by the Law (See Deuteronomy. Above)
Take it at face value and no one can be saved, but have no fear it is qualified by the surrounding text!

If you believe; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish”. (Luke 13:5)
And we already demonstrated that God means wiped out, forgotten, the second death, eternity, the end.