My Case for eternal Hell

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: My Case for eternal Hell

Post by steve » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:12 pm

So God is beholden to us for His happiness! We have the power to make or break God's happiness! What a system. I kinda think God does not need either me or thee to be happy:
Homer,

This is an interesting twist. I thought you agreed with other non-Calvinists (like myself) that God is indeed unhappy at the loss of any of His children. You believe (I think—but maybe I am wrong) that a person for whom Christ died might not get saved—or even that one who is saved may apostasize and be lost. Is it not your opinion that this is an occasion of unhappiness for God? I thought only Calvinists believed that God is callous to the loss of certain souls, because they were not elect. Jesus wept over Jerusalem's rejection of Him. Their unbelief appears to have had a negative impact on His happiness.
Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything,
As I understand it, Paul is arguing against the use of images, not against serving God. What God does not "need" from man is to be represented by statues in order to enhance His existence.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: My Case for eternal Hell

Post by steve » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:54 pm

The burden of proof concerning universal reconciliation appears to rest upon its opponents. There is the general teaching of scripture that God desires to save all men. This is not a mild desire. It is an obsession serious enough to induce Him to sacrifice His Son to accomplish it. Rather straightforward passages seem to say that Jesus will reconcile as many things to God as were originally created (Col.1:16, 20) and to have as great (actually greater) an impact upon the salvation of the race as Adam had upon its condemnation (Rom.5:18). Jesus said He came to seek and to save that which was lost. How many things have been lost? Is there someplace that says He only came to recover a few of the things that are lost? His words do not imply any such limitations. There are many scriptures that describe God's plan this way (I have listed about fifty previously, as per your request at the time). These verses, prima facie, would teach eventual reconciliation of all to God.

The Bible seems to say that the time is coming when Christ will have defeated all opposition and death will have no permanent victory. Talbott argued that, if one person remains eternally the victim of death, then Paul's question, "O death, where is your sting; O grave, where is your victory" (which is supposed to be rhetorical and unanswerable), will have been answered, and Paul's intended point will have been neutralized. The burden of proof, as I said, would fall upon those wishing to overthrow the plain-sounding texts on this. What would that require?

1) For annihilationists, it would require a demonstration that the "destruction" passages preclude later reconciliation. If a scenario can be imagined in which the wicked will experience olethros (destruction, ruination), followed by reconciliation, then there would not be any need to postulate annihilation. All the words in the Old Testament speaking about the destruction, melting, consuming, etc., of sinners, are describing temporal judgments (usually of nations), and do not obviously preclude some divine activity in their lives after death. In other words, universal reconciliation can easily accommodate most (perhaps all) the proof texts used by annihilationists, if necessary. Though this does not necessarily prove universalism, it does mean that annihilationists will have to go further than this in shouldering the burden of proof.

2) For traditionalists, it would require proving that the post-judgment torment of the lost is never-ending. If it is not never-ending, then it may lead to universal reconciliation further down the line. I know of three verses that "sound" like they describe never-ending torment. However, none of them has an air-tight case. All three are capable of being accommodated by restorationism (this involves exploring the meaning of Greek words like aionios and kolasis). The traditionalist view, in my judgment, has the weakest of all cases, exegetically.

3) For both annihilationists and traditionalists, it would require demonstrating that there is no opportunity after death for repentance, or, if there is, that there are finite humans who can put up infinite resistance to the dealings of God. To my knowledge, there is not one verse supporting either of these notions, and they are both simply assumed by those who, for some reason, have an emotional reaction to universal reconciliation.

I am always waiting to be persuaded by which ever view can present the strongest scriptural case. Therefore, I welcome anyone to meet the burden of proof so that the case for one of these other views can be carried forward.

I think many here agree that the case for the traditional view is flimsy in the extreme. Many have moved toward annihilationism as a reaction to it, but are not willing seriously to consider restorationism. Annihilation is a halfway house between the two "extremes." It is similar to those who have been dispensationalists all their lives making the "big move" to post-tribulational premillennialism. Amillennialism is just too far to jump in a single step. Of course, a very large percentage of those who move from pre-trib to post-trib end up going all the way to amil, given enough time to emotionally adjust to such radical changes.

Consider John Stott's comments, defending annihilationism, but dealing with what he calls the "apparently universalistic texts" of scripture:
…the eternal existence of the impenitent in hell would be hard to reconcile with the promises of God’s final victory over evil, or with the apparently universalistic texts which speak…of God uniting all things under Christ’s headship (Ephesians 1:10), reconciling all things to himself through Christ (Colossians 1:20), and bringing every knee to bow to Christ and every tongue to confess his lordship (Philippians 2:10-11), so that in the end God will be ‘all in all’ or ‘everything to everybody’ (1 Corinthians 15:28).
Then he says:
These texts do not lead me to Universalism, because of the many others which speak of the terrible and eternal reality of hell. But they do lead me to ask how God can in any meaningful sense be called ‘everything to everybody’ while an unspecified number of people still continue in rebellion against him and under his judgement.
You see the cavalier dismissal of universalism because of the texts that "speak of the terrible and eternal reality of hell." The only problem here is the word "eternal." So many studies have been done on aionios over the past few years, that no informed scholar would wish to base his doctrine on one preferred translation of this word. Most traditionalists (e.g., Chrysostom), annihilationists (e.g., Fudge), and those as yet uncommitted (F.F. Bruce) even admit that its probable meaning is "pertaining to the age", rather than "eternal." Every responsible lexicon admits that aionios often refers to things that are not actually everlasting. Jacoby writes:
…few are so bold as to claim that the Greek adjective aionios always suggests “infinity in time”—such thinking has been rejected by most modern exegetes.
When the traditionalist Marshall charged that universalism bears the burden of proof against traditionalism, Thomas Talbott replied:
…in the presence of Paul’s clear statement affirming that justification and life comes to all [Rom.5:18], the burden of proof, it seems to me, is just the opposite of what Marshall claims it to be. If someone should affirm that, according to Paul, those who fail to repent before their 50th birthday will never be saved, then that person must bear the burden of proof; and similarly, if someone should affirm that, according to Paul, those who fail to repent during their earthly lives will never be saved, then that person must also bear the burden of proof…does Paul say anything remotely like this?
It is hard (for me) to find fault with this reasoning.

Singalphile
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: My Case for eternal Hell

Post by Singalphile » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:28 pm

RiC wrote regarding my mention of 1 Peter 3:
So are you implying that God will run out of patience at some point? ... It may be true that God will one day destroy the literal heavens and earth ..., and that would seem to imply that God's patience will run out in allowing the present earth to continue in rebellion, at least for the generation living at that time. But this has no bearing about God's patience for sinners in the afterlife. It appears that Peter elsewhere believed that there was hope for redemption beyond the grave. ... 1 Peter 4:4
Yes, that is what 2 Peter 3 is saying, I think. ("Run out of patience" is merely a figure of speech, of course, but you understand what I mean.) If you follow Peter's thinking, I think you might see that he is explaining to his readers that the (or a) reason that the Lord has not returned already is that "the Lord ... is patient toward you, not wishing for any [of you] to perish but for all [of you] to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9 NASB)." His explanation makes good sense, I think, if he means, as it seems to me he does, that perishing is the alternative to repenting, and that the day of judgement and perishing/destruction of the ungodly will be the end of those to whom he is writing who will not repent and thus not inherit eternal life.

On the other hand, if Peter's "day of the Lord" here brings only a temporal and temporary judgement of death (like the death experienced by Christians and non-Christians every day now and then including, eventually, the very people/Christians Peter was addressing), then it would indeed be true that his expression of God's desires in this passage has no bearing about God's patience for sinners in the afterlife. Though in that case, the verse (9) ought to be removed from the UR literature. (It should be removed in either case, imo, just to be clear.)

As for 1 Peter 4:4-6, I don't understand it. Steve's view (from very end of 1 Peter part 04) is or was that this refers to Christians who had already died, but would be raised, vindicated, and rewarded when God judges everyone. In any case, it doesn't seem to me to be relevant to the disagreement between conditionalists and reconciliationists.

Again, I do belief that those who hold to UR do so because they think that the Bible teaches it, if that is what they say. I believe the same thing about the traditionalists who say so. As a (90%) conditionalist/annihilationist, I at least know for certain that my own view is arrived at solely by prayerful exegesis, without regard for tradition, emotion, finances, or reputation. I think I should assume the same for any brother or sister. None of us wants to be quarrelsome, I'm sure.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

User avatar
RICHinCHRIST
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:27 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: My Case for eternal Hell

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:26 pm

Singalphile wrote:
Yes, that is what 2 Peter 3 is saying, I think. ("Run out of patience" is merely a figure of speech, of course, but you understand what I mean.) If you follow Peter's thinking, I think you might see that he is explaining to his readers that the (or a) reason that the Lord has not returned already is that "the Lord ... is patient toward you, not wishing for any [of you] to perish but for all [of you] to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9 NASB)." His explanation makes good sense, I think, if he means, as it seems to me he does, that perishing is the alternative to repenting, and that the day of judgement and perishing/destruction of the ungodly will be the end of those to whom he is writing who will not repent and thus not inherit eternal life.
Perishing is surely the alternative to repenting, no disagreement here. But if one perishes, it is not impossible for that person to one day be reconciled to God. The question is whether the individual himself perishes or whether all that is sinful within him perishes. The conditionalist of course agrees with the former, but the latter is not an option off the table (at least for me).

On another note, I heard Greg Boyd say that he believes in restorationism to a point. He believes that all that is in the image of God in a person will be restored, but if there is nothing left in the sinner to be restored then God will mercifully stop sustaining the sinner. According to his concept, I think he has already made the jump that the restorationist has made. The only question that remains is whether an individual can cease to maintain anything that resembles the image of God. I don't see anything in Scripture that gives a hint that sinners have lost (or will lose) all of their image-bearing qualities (unless one holds to total depravity). It seems the burden of proof lies upon the conditionalist to prove such a notion, especially since there are so many texts where salvation for all is plainly stated, and since, the very definition of being human is being created in His image. Does one cease to remain human after experiencing the fire of God (which Boyd admits will restore as much as possible)?


Singalphile wrote:As for 1 Peter 4:4-6, I don't understand it. Steve's view (from very end of 1 Peter part 04) is or was that this refers to Christians who had already died, but would be raised, vindicated, and rewarded when God judges everyone. In any case, it doesn't seem to me to be relevant to the disagreement between conditionalists and reconciliationists.
It's of course possible that this is a correct interpretation, but it's not completely clear. The amplified bible, NIV, as well as the Message paraphrase assume this is talking about dead believers, but this is nowhere stated in the text. In fact, verse five appears to give the context that this is post-Mortem, on the day of judgment. The context is speaking of Nonbelievers in their abominable idolatries, so it appears that one could interpret the "dead" of verse six to refer to that unbelieving category. This would seem to give positive affirmation that there is hope for Nonbelievers in the afterlife. They will be judged for their actions done in the body, but they will end up living with God in the Spirit.
Singalphile wrote:Again, I do belief that those who hold to UR do so because they think that the Bible teaches it, if that is what they say. I believe the same thing about the traditionalists who say so. As a (90%) conditionalist/annihilationist, I at least know for certain that my own view is arrived at solely by prayerful exegesis, without regard for tradition, emotion, finances, or reputation. I think I should assume the same for any brother or sister. None of us wants to be quarrelsome, I'm sure.
I'm right there with you bro (in regards to how our views should develop). I hope nothing I said appeared quarrelsome, it was not my intention.

Singalphile
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: My Case for eternal Hell

Post by Singalphile » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:52 pm

RICHinCHRIST wrote:
I hope nothing I said appeared quarrelsome, it was not my intention.
No, I don't remember that anything did. Thanks for the thoughts.

Edit: Oh yeah, I remember now why I mentioned quarreling. I had just read about speculation that produces quarrels (I Tim 2:23) and it struck a chord with me.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

Post Reply

Return to “Views of Hell”