Do I believe UR to be true? I am not convinced but let me tell you that it is one of my greatest hopes in life. Does this hope come from the wickedness of my heart. I think not. but others have told me otherwise. Like I said before I have found this to be a heart issue.
Hi Philman,
Is God powerful enough to have his will done? I believe so and that is why i think UR is true and if it were believed by the church throughout history i think the body of believers would be a more compassionate church not only to the world but to each other.
My UR Undertones
Re: My UR Undertones
Hi Homer,
You asked:
It would be entirely possible for one to judge that God is just (that is, acting within His rights), but also that He is not very lovable—if His behavior was found to be distasteful. It is like the little girl in John Greenleaf Whittier's poem, "The Minister's Daughter," who, upon hearing her Calvinist father's sermon on predestination, found the idea very unfortunate that God would ordain misery upon so many people. Her father answered, in part:
“And whether by his ordaining
To us cometh good or ill,
Joy or pain, or light or shadow,
We must fear and love him still.”
“O, I fear him!” said the daughter,
“And I try to love him too;
But I wish he was good and gentle
Kind and loving as you.”
She found her father to be lovable enough, no doubt, but only because he was not like the God he preached. This did not prevent her from fearing God. But it may have hindered her ability to love Him.
Justice is an objective value, whereas lovability is a very subjective call. A person might find God difficult to love, without disputing His right to do unlovely things—and even without suggesting that no one else could find Him easier to love. My comment was that people who do not find lovable a God who is determined to be kind to all His creation would not likely find a God who wishes to condemn the majority of His creatures to eternal torment more lovable. This speculation could be wrong, but I don't see how it could be.
I always found God to be lovable, even when I was fully convinced of the eternal torment view. However, I know of many who have never been able to love such a God. The worse for them, of course, if He turns out to be that way. Nonetheless, my comment was that I would expect more people to find Him easy to love if He was perceived to be more like Jesus than like the God of the Calvinist or of the traditionalist.
You asked:
We all judge God, whether favorably or unfavorably. Sarah judged that God was faithful, which is why she received strength to conceive in her old age (Heb.11:11). It is impossible to have thoughts about God without making value judgments about Him. Of course, it is not the same thing as saying that we necessarily make a negative judgment, and it is an entirely different question whether our judgments carry any weight whatsoever. To make a judgment of God's character is precisely what we do when we say He is "good" (or otherwise).But would you love Him as much if your concept of "ET" is correct and judgement is final? If not, wouldn't you be judging God?
It would be entirely possible for one to judge that God is just (that is, acting within His rights), but also that He is not very lovable—if His behavior was found to be distasteful. It is like the little girl in John Greenleaf Whittier's poem, "The Minister's Daughter," who, upon hearing her Calvinist father's sermon on predestination, found the idea very unfortunate that God would ordain misery upon so many people. Her father answered, in part:
“And whether by his ordaining
To us cometh good or ill,
Joy or pain, or light or shadow,
We must fear and love him still.”
“O, I fear him!” said the daughter,
“And I try to love him too;
But I wish he was good and gentle
Kind and loving as you.”
She found her father to be lovable enough, no doubt, but only because he was not like the God he preached. This did not prevent her from fearing God. But it may have hindered her ability to love Him.
Justice is an objective value, whereas lovability is a very subjective call. A person might find God difficult to love, without disputing His right to do unlovely things—and even without suggesting that no one else could find Him easier to love. My comment was that people who do not find lovable a God who is determined to be kind to all His creation would not likely find a God who wishes to condemn the majority of His creatures to eternal torment more lovable. This speculation could be wrong, but I don't see how it could be.
I always found God to be lovable, even when I was fully convinced of the eternal torment view. However, I know of many who have never been able to love such a God. The worse for them, of course, if He turns out to be that way. Nonetheless, my comment was that I would expect more people to find Him easy to love if He was perceived to be more like Jesus than like the God of the Calvinist or of the traditionalist.
I am not sure if taking those images literally is a universalist practice or not. I have heard a variety of ideas about the nature of punishment from different universalist writers. I don't think they would all have the same approach.Another thing I puzzle over is why universalists take the statements about hell more literally than traditionalist thinkers do. Isn't "outer darkness", being "cast out", and separation a more frequent motif?
Re: My UR Undertones
I will admit that my ultra-universalist view begins with my understanding of God. He certainly does not torture. He is loving like Jesus. He has written in our hearts His laws and He himself would certainly not violate His own law. As I see it, God would not do something that would violate my conscience if I did it.
Imagine if a scientist had the ability to bring someone back to life. So this scientist raises the dead, punishes him for a while for something he had done before his death, and then kills him again. Can this be viewed any other way than wrong? Even worse if this scientist kept the person alive in some type of tormented condition.
Someone might say, "If we understood all things as God does, we might view hell differently." Maybe so, but I continue to struggle with the whole concept.
Todd
Imagine if a scientist had the ability to bring someone back to life. So this scientist raises the dead, punishes him for a while for something he had done before his death, and then kills him again. Can this be viewed any other way than wrong? Even worse if this scientist kept the person alive in some type of tormented condition.
Someone might say, "If we understood all things as God does, we might view hell differently." Maybe so, but I continue to struggle with the whole concept.
Todd