Conditional Immortality Links

[RND]

I believe in unconditional mortality!

Death is a certainty.

[Todd]

Harry Blamires was a friend of and a student under C.S. Lewis. He wrote a book about Heaven and Hell, in which he assumed the traditional view to be correct. I thought he made a good point that would also possibly answer your question for the extinctionist. Blamires wrote:

"A Hitler, a Himmler, an Eichmann, or a Stalin can only die once. At their death there may be a sense of satisfaction that the world has been cleansed of their presence. But there is no conviction that they have faced a true reckoning of what they have done to others. Justice and truth demand that they should." (Harry Blamires, Knowing the Truth About Heaven & Hell, p.7)

He elaborated more on this point but I think this paragraph summarizes the basic idea.

Steve,

I understand what you are saying here, but I still don't see the point. Who benefits from this scenario? Certainly not the unrighteous; why punish someone if there is no chance of repentance? Does God gain some benefit? I don't see it. Is this some sort of "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" payback? Didn't Jesus reject that sort of thing?...

Matt 5:38-39
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Does Jesus teach us to do something that His Father will not do?

Todd

[Suzana]

I’m also having problems with some aspects of the conditional immortality view – that is of people first spending a time in hell proportional to their sins, & then annihilated.

What exactly would be the point, if they will then cease to exist?
Would it satisfy justice more than their mere destruction? Wouldn’t that be a case of the saved, or God, deriving enjoyment from someone else’s suffering, to no useful purpose?
Is it somehow meant to bring satisfaction to those believers who had been wronged by these wicked ones? I rather think that we will be so overwhelmingly happy, wanting to see others suffer will be the last thing on our minds.

Joh 16:20 Truly, truly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. And you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 The woman has grief when she bears, because her hour has come. But when she brings forth the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, because of the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And therefore you now have sorrow. But I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.

Today, there are international human rights laws & countries have or are looking at legislation prohibiting torture, even for those who themselves have perhaps been guilty of this very thing like serial killers (whether private citizens or heads of nations like Stalin or Saddam Hussein).
It seems to be a matter of pride that we will not stoop to be as bad as the criminal sentenced to death, thus even capital punishment is to be carried out in a humane manner.

In the case of punishment in hell prior to annihilation, it seems to portray God to be more vengeful than civilised nations are. It just seems to be completely counter-intuitive to me. (I like this new-to-me word).
This seems completely counter to God’s command for us to love our enemies and to extend forgiveness, and His own character of love and mercy.

Steve posted a quote from a student of C.S. Lewis (above & on page 2 of this thread):

"A Hitler, a Himmler, an Eichmann, or a Stalin can only die once. At their death there may be a sense of satisfaction that the world has been cleansed of their presence. But there is no conviction that they have faced a true reckoning of what they have done to others. Justice and truth demand that they should." (Harry Blamires, Knowing the Truth About Heaven & Hell, p.7)

I can understand that, & that it would be desirable to have all the dead being raised, judged and then (the wicked) annihilated, but I still don’t see the need or validity of them being tortured first.
If there is no further opportunity to repent, or they refused, surely we could still have the satisfaction of knowing that eternity has been cleansed of their presence if they are zapped immediately after sentencing.

I haven’t done a complete study on the alternate views to eternal torment, so I’m not sure if this aspect is always the view held by CI adherents.

[mikew]

I started studying the topic of hell several years back. Now I placed my raw data at http://www.theos.org/wiki/index.php/MikesStudyOnHell where I tried to sort out the various terms and names under the concept of "hell." This raw data probably doesn't flow too well cause it wasn't a finished product. And I didn't have a chance to get back to this study. But one thing I was seeing is that where the punishments and fires were described, the application was only to a narrow group of people. Even now I wonder if there were as pain or suffering described upon these people.

One observation about many instances of Gehenna (translated as "hell" in the various KJV variations) Jesus never condemned any specific person or group to a punishment in Gehenna. I think the closest to this was where Jesus said that some types of wrong doers were worthy of the Gehenna fire.

So the God of scripture may not be harsh as the traditions of man have indicated. If this is so, then somehow in God's wisdom it may have made sense that there have existed a harsh hellish doctrine.

[auggybendoggy]

I believe in unconditional mortality!

Death is a certainty.

Thats the amazing news of the gospel. Death is certainty but Jesus defeats death. In other words it is true we could not save ourselves (death is certtainty) but God can save us (Jesus defeats death for all manking on the cross).

Aug

[darinhouston]

I believe in unconditional mortality!

Death is a certainty.

Thats the amazing news of the gospel. Death is certainty but Jesus defeats death. In other words it is true we could not save ourselves (death is certtainty) but God can save us (Jesus defeats death for all manking on the cross).

Aug

Amen!

But, I believe the Gospel is so much more -- it is usually (especially by Calvinists) presented only in connection with eternal life in the resurrection, but it's also (and maybe primarily) about the beginning of His overcoming of the evil one, Christ's coronation and beginning of His plan for all of creation to be "put to rights" and that we would (even today) be free from the bondage of sin.

Personal salvation is part of that, but the main message of the Gospel is usually overlooked (or underplayed).

That, and the fact that the Gospel is for all men everywhere!

[RND]

I believe in unconditional mortality!

Death is a certainty.

Thats the amazing news of the gospel. Death is certainty but Jesus defeats death. In other words it is true we could not save ourselves (death is certtainty) but God can save us (Jesus defeats death for all manking on the cross).

Aug

Clarification: "Physical" death is a certainty.

[auggybendoggy]

Physical death is a result of spiritual death. Thus when one is certain so is the other. (just a thought )

[auggybendoggy]

Darin: Are you reading N.T. Wright

I agree Darin, the whole narrative of scripture is God's defeat over evil in a complete sense. The certainty of death is certainly DESTROYED. Praise God for his Son!

Aug

[RND]

Physical death is a result of spiritual death. Thus when one is certain so is the other. (just a thought )

That's would only be true if one believes man has a "dual" nature. I believe man "is" a soul not that man "has" a soul, i think scripture is fairly clear on this point. BTW, there are loads of "spiritually dead" folks walking around society.

Happy Sabbath